Can't believe we've been talking about "groomers" for a couple years now and we still have some people defending sex drawings of 6 year olds. Anime fandom is a common gateway into trans/rainbow grooming btw.
Anime fandom is a common gateway into trans/rainbow grooming btw
There are many demented groups of people that hang around in those circles that prey on and groom kids. Conversely, there are far right anime circles as well. Its worth noting no such trans grooming exists on any noticeable scale in Japan that I've seen (I speak Japanese and tend to seek out all sorts of anime fan communities).
Point being, it isnt the anime cultural sphere itself that is the issue, it is the select groups of freaks who prey upon children. Shitting on anime for that would be akin to shitting on guns if a mass shooter were part of some gun enthusiast group.
Back on the general topic: hate on loli art all you want. Its totally understandable to find it detestable. But it should not be illegal.
Back on the general topic: hate on loli art all you want. Its totally understandable to find it detestable. But it should not be illegal.
It's interesting that expression of disgust with loli always gets interpreted with overtones of censorship. That's somewhat natural though. The more soft cultural power a given viewpoint exercises, the more likely it leads to some type of structural change.
In the case of lolicon I think its fetishists - I'm saying this generally, not saying you're one of them - need to realize the need for a détente with the rest of society.
The problem is that unlike other noxious subcultures, pr0n can't be defended prima facie with freedom of speech. The widespread availability of hardcore porn, and even porn itself, is relatively recent and the only reason it's tolerated isn't because of some kind of principled free speech movement - obscenity laws have been ruled constitutional in the US since the dawn of the country as smut has no meaningful purpose. Its main function is facilitating an activity that anyone can accomplish with their imagination and a free hand and the reason it's legal is simply because because the majority of the population is capable of enjoying heterosexual sex. On the other hand, the majority does not enjoy naked cartoon prepubescent children.
So lolicon can exist within their own little subcultures but when loli weebs throw fits about this or that company censoring them, at some point they will be outnumbered by the number of people who become aware enough to be annoyed by their existence. And they don't have any of the natural protections and failsafes that other groups have.
I agree that making lolicon illegal, using de jure force, is another step on the road to censorship of protected free speech. But culturally, the best it can hope for is that most people don't notice its existence.
There are many demented groups of people that hang around in those circles that prey on and groom kids. Conversely, there are far right anime circles as well. Its worth noting no such trans grooming exists on any noticeable scale in Japan that I've seen (I speak Japanese and tend to seek out all sorts of anime fan communities).
It would be fascinating to learn more about anime communities in Japan, but in America the anime scene - not passive anime viewers, but the people who participate in anime fan events - seems to be a gaggle of ugly people diddling each other.
It's interesting that expression of disgust with loli always gets interpreted with overtones of censorship.
Probably because most of the time if you continue the conversation, the person going out of their way to virtue signal their disgust about it tends to admit they want it banned or made illegal.
That being said, I dont necessarily disagree with most of what you say. I'm not going to be over here advocating for it to be able to be posted everywhere. It should be only in underground, out of the way places where one isn't going to accidentally run into it. And I think its perfectly fine that even in places where it is allowed, it is usually something you have to opt into manually.
But in the current environment where seemingly it is one of the hot things for the giant payment processors to virtue signal over and try to snuff out, it's hard for me not to get annoyed over any internet activism type shit crusading against it. Because once you get rid of something like that which is on the razor's edge of what is allowed, you create a new edge and that is what they will go after next. That, and I hate cultural imperialist bullshit like this where some giant American mega corp forces their shit on Japan.
why do you care about a drawing? it's not a person
This is the most critical part from my perspective. The subject matter here doesn't actually matter, whether you hate it or enjoy it. What people need to understand is criminalizing a drawing is criminalizing something artificial. It's opening the door to thought crime, and actual government regulation of ideas.
If you care about freedom of speech, you need to support allowing people to draw whatever they want. It doesn't need to be looked upon favorably by society, nor does it need to be allowed on all platforms. But it cannot be criminalized, because it will lead to subjective government regulation of media.
Artificially generated CP (which is going to become common, you can't stop it) will sadly make it harder for CP enforcement groups to identify real victims of crime. CP rings will distribute gigs of the fake stuff mixed in with some real pictures. If the law doesn't make ALL photorealistic depictions illegal, that won't be enough to take the groups down unless you can prove which are real. (though some criminals will be stupid enough to brag about having the real shit because they get off on that)
you need to support allowing people to draw whatever they want
What if they just criminalized the distribution? You could make the same argument about drugs. You shouldn't be able to criminalize growing a plant - but you can restrict the commercial use of that plant's products.
I think we actually do need to look more closely at the specific content in question here before making broad judgements. The guy at the top who seems ok with it claims "loli is for pedos"? Really? So loli unambiguously only means "Hardcore depictions of sex with young characters"? Because critics like to apply that label to any manga or anime with young girls in it. (I guess all of us are talking about the former but you never know.)
Japan doesn't have freedom of speech by the way. Their constitution protects a general idea of "freedom of thought", but practically that isn't applied to entertainment. All theoretical though. I don't care what Japan does. They shouldn't do something because enlightened westerners demand it.
yeah, no shit it's for pedos, but more importantly, why do you care about a drawing? it's not a person.
I don't think that's the "more important" part. Posts like this just appear from time to time and loli is disgusting.
There's nothing to prove that pedos satiate their urges with loli porn. It may very well be the case, who knows, but the alternative is possible, that the legal market helps to expand the illegal market. This is what happened with legalized prostitution in Europe as the appetite of johns exceeded the supply.
Yeah people who like their two minutes hate on easy targets are often taking off the heat from their even worse depravity. Normal people just try to forget it exists, although that is sometimes difficult.
The leftist alarmists also got in a tizzy over Spy x Family having the daughter blush when picked up. They said it was clearly loli sexualizing content.
I think they were just mad that a story about a male-female happy and functional paired family that is working against an authoritarian East-German nation became so popular. But their choice of attack was "it literally has a child somewhere in its content, therefore, loli. Therefore, ban."
So "comparing hentai to manga" is a troublesome statement, since the opposition does it a LOT, at least in terms of terminologies, in order to poison the well.
Anime fandom is a common gateway into trans/rainbow grooming btw.
So is videogames. When I play TF2, I can almost guarantee that I'll be playing with someone with a name that references being trans. Not to mention, pedo-central, Discord, started as a videogame chat app.
Of course both of these hobbies pale in comparison to the grooming happening in schools and on social media. I don't think that it's fair to go around blaming hobbies, especially when transgender characters are virtually absent from anime and manga, outside of porn.
So is videogames. When I play TF2, I can almost guarantee that I'll be playing with someone with a name that references being trans. Not to mention, pedo-central, Discord, started as a videogame chat app.
Yes, online multiplayer and Discord are both breeding grounds for trans pests. Any activity that could lead to terminal online disorder generally is. I think you know that Discord is way worse than TF2 though.
Loli art is pedo art. Sorry!
Can't believe we've been talking about "groomers" for a couple years now and we still have some people defending sex drawings of 6 year olds. Anime fandom is a common gateway into trans/rainbow grooming btw.
There are many demented groups of people that hang around in those circles that prey on and groom kids. Conversely, there are far right anime circles as well. Its worth noting no such trans grooming exists on any noticeable scale in Japan that I've seen (I speak Japanese and tend to seek out all sorts of anime fan communities).
Point being, it isnt the anime cultural sphere itself that is the issue, it is the select groups of freaks who prey upon children. Shitting on anime for that would be akin to shitting on guns if a mass shooter were part of some gun enthusiast group.
Back on the general topic: hate on loli art all you want. Its totally understandable to find it detestable. But it should not be illegal.
It's interesting that expression of disgust with loli always gets interpreted with overtones of censorship. That's somewhat natural though. The more soft cultural power a given viewpoint exercises, the more likely it leads to some type of structural change.
In the case of lolicon I think its fetishists - I'm saying this generally, not saying you're one of them - need to realize the need for a détente with the rest of society.
The problem is that unlike other noxious subcultures, pr0n can't be defended prima facie with freedom of speech. The widespread availability of hardcore porn, and even porn itself, is relatively recent and the only reason it's tolerated isn't because of some kind of principled free speech movement - obscenity laws have been ruled constitutional in the US since the dawn of the country as smut has no meaningful purpose. Its main function is facilitating an activity that anyone can accomplish with their imagination and a free hand and the reason it's legal is simply because because the majority of the population is capable of enjoying heterosexual sex. On the other hand, the majority does not enjoy naked cartoon prepubescent children.
So lolicon can exist within their own little subcultures but when loli weebs throw fits about this or that company censoring them, at some point they will be outnumbered by the number of people who become aware enough to be annoyed by their existence. And they don't have any of the natural protections and failsafes that other groups have.
I agree that making lolicon illegal, using de jure force, is another step on the road to censorship of protected free speech. But culturally, the best it can hope for is that most people don't notice its existence.
It would be fascinating to learn more about anime communities in Japan, but in America the anime scene - not passive anime viewers, but the people who participate in anime fan events - seems to be a gaggle of ugly people diddling each other.
Probably because most of the time if you continue the conversation, the person going out of their way to virtue signal their disgust about it tends to admit they want it banned or made illegal.
That being said, I dont necessarily disagree with most of what you say. I'm not going to be over here advocating for it to be able to be posted everywhere. It should be only in underground, out of the way places where one isn't going to accidentally run into it. And I think its perfectly fine that even in places where it is allowed, it is usually something you have to opt into manually.
But in the current environment where seemingly it is one of the hot things for the giant payment processors to virtue signal over and try to snuff out, it's hard for me not to get annoyed over any internet activism type shit crusading against it. Because once you get rid of something like that which is on the razor's edge of what is allowed, you create a new edge and that is what they will go after next. That, and I hate cultural imperialist bullshit like this where some giant American mega corp forces their shit on Japan.
I can't really disagree with that either. I just like to bring up certain facts, even if the response is predictable
yeah, no shit it's for pedos, but more importantly, why do you care about a drawing? it's not a person.
if pedos fap to lolis instead of molesting real children, that's a win in my book.
This is the most critical part from my perspective. The subject matter here doesn't actually matter, whether you hate it or enjoy it. What people need to understand is criminalizing a drawing is criminalizing something artificial. It's opening the door to thought crime, and actual government regulation of ideas.
If you care about freedom of speech, you need to support allowing people to draw whatever they want. It doesn't need to be looked upon favorably by society, nor does it need to be allowed on all platforms. But it cannot be criminalized, because it will lead to subjective government regulation of media.
Artificially generated CP (which is going to become common, you can't stop it) will sadly make it harder for CP enforcement groups to identify real victims of crime. CP rings will distribute gigs of the fake stuff mixed in with some real pictures. If the law doesn't make ALL photorealistic depictions illegal, that won't be enough to take the groups down unless you can prove which are real. (though some criminals will be stupid enough to brag about having the real shit because they get off on that)
What if they just criminalized the distribution? You could make the same argument about drugs. You shouldn't be able to criminalize growing a plant - but you can restrict the commercial use of that plant's products.
I think we actually do need to look more closely at the specific content in question here before making broad judgements. The guy at the top who seems ok with it claims "loli is for pedos"? Really? So loli unambiguously only means "Hardcore depictions of sex with young characters"? Because critics like to apply that label to any manga or anime with young girls in it. (I guess all of us are talking about the former but you never know.)
Japan doesn't have freedom of speech by the way. Their constitution protects a general idea of "freedom of thought", but practically that isn't applied to entertainment. All theoretical though. I don't care what Japan does. They shouldn't do something because enlightened westerners demand it.
I don't think that's the "more important" part. Posts like this just appear from time to time and loli is disgusting.
There's nothing to prove that pedos satiate their urges with loli porn. It may very well be the case, who knows, but the alternative is possible, that the legal market helps to expand the illegal market. This is what happened with legalized prostitution in Europe as the appetite of johns exceeded the supply.
when internet porn exploded, the moral panickers screeched that sexual crimes would skyrocket as society was flooded with porn.
the opposite happened.
the meteoric rise of free porn coincided with the sharpest decline in sexual crimes in recorded history.
Yeah the thing is though, that also coincided with a meteoric rise in hookup sex and sex with children is illegal even if they "consent"
Yeah people who like their two minutes hate on easy targets are often taking off the heat from their even worse depravity. Normal people just try to forget it exists, although that is sometimes difficult.
You're comparing hentai to manga, which is an odd thing to do.
The leftist alarmists also got in a tizzy over Spy x Family having the daughter blush when picked up. They said it was clearly loli sexualizing content.
I think they were just mad that a story about a male-female happy and functional paired family that is working against an authoritarian East-German nation became so popular. But their choice of attack was "it literally has a child somewhere in its content, therefore, loli. Therefore, ban."
So "comparing hentai to manga" is a troublesome statement, since the opposition does it a LOT, at least in terms of terminologies, in order to poison the well.
I am?
So is videogames. When I play TF2, I can almost guarantee that I'll be playing with someone with a name that references being trans. Not to mention, pedo-central, Discord, started as a videogame chat app.
Of course both of these hobbies pale in comparison to the grooming happening in schools and on social media. I don't think that it's fair to go around blaming hobbies, especially when transgender characters are virtually absent from anime and manga, outside of porn.
Yes, online multiplayer and Discord are both breeding grounds for trans pests. Any activity that could lead to terminal online disorder generally is. I think you know that Discord is way worse than TF2 though.