I'm through Chapter 7 and I'm the most interested in the characteristics of the overall society as a whole. There's a lot of hints (and I'm not asking for spoilers). Apparently those that don't complete service are second tier people, perhaps not allowed to vote at all, etc. It seems that's okay though, as Johnny's dad is a successful businessman and doesn't want his son to go into the service, so whatever is excluded to those with no service didn't change his mind on it. If anything it's hard to tell because the service seems to have a positive opinion among the young and those that are in it, but everyone else not so much.
Punishment as a training tool seems fair to be if used appropriately. They gave the guy every chance to get out of it as he was being a total turd. They also made clear at one point to make sure he acknowledged he had been made familiar with the rules. It's his own fault. I do think the accompanying bad conduct release seems a bit harsh, since it's implied that his entire life is totally ruined now. I'm not sure that punishment fits the crime. But I didn't make the rules.
Overall, I like the concept of corporal punishment, particularly for non-military crimes. Prison is stupid and a tax on society, and I'd much rather see something like this caning more prevalent in the real world. It has to be public and humiliating just as in the book. I guess the bad part is I don't want any of it in the hands of most of the current governments, as they'd be flogging so many people for wrongthink it would be a 24/7 operation.
The only other thing that stuck out to be is it seemed like they shrugged off training deaths like it was common and nothing, particularly the part about what I presume is the survival training. Could not such a technologically advanced society monitor this and not let the failures die but retrieve them and give a medical discharge? It didn't sound like they were talking accidents, but just inability to survive the conditions was part of the weeding out process. Maybe I was just reading too much into it.
Only people who have completed a term of service are eligible to vote/hold office. That's what the book means when it talks about 'Franchise'. Most people are content with the freedoms civilians have and never even try to enter the service (I don't remember if the book ever gives a breakdown regarding what exact portion of the federation are 'citizens' vs. 'civilians', but I think it's implied to be single or low double digit percentages who are citizens and entitled to vote.)
Also, I don't think it's right to say they shrug off training deaths as 'nothing'. They had the whole regiment (I think that's the right term), including officers, spend 13 days looking for their bodies, had them buried with full military honors, and I believe (technically) posthumously granted them Citizenship, or at least actual ranks, not just 'Cadet such-and-such'.
I covered this in more detail in my top-level post on this thread, but Heinlen is trying to portray that value is (at least partially) on what something costs someone. The training is harsh, and even sometimes lethal, not only because it must be in order to be effective (or at least is made more effective by that risk), but also because the soldiers will value what they gain through it much more because of that risk.
it seemed like they shrugged off training deaths like it was common and nothing, particularly the part about what I presume is the survival training. Could not such a technologically advanced society monitor this and not let the failures die but retrieve them and give a medical discharge?
They do take it seriously, but accept that it's part of the package: push the men (no girls in MI in this novel!) as hard as possible. Doing that involves risks, including deaths.
Heinlein wrote this in the late 50's, so even for Sci-Fi the things we have now (GPS, heartrate & health monitors) were far fetched. They were in the battle suits of course!
I found that part odd as well. The Canadian wilderness is no place to dump a pile of recruits for what, 3-4 days without any equipment at all? It doesn't say the duration, but that they were buck-naked and had to travel 40 miles.
Johnnie killed rabbits with flaked rocks? The guy's a murder machine! (They had some training in that area, of course)
It does say earlier that they could clear 50 miles in 10 hours on the level, so they were dumped only about a day's march away for their survival training
The Rocky Mountains are far from "level". It took 3 days I think? And it gets plenty cold at night, even in summer.
It seemed 'over the top' but he didn't dwell on it, just made the points of recruits dying and MI never leaves a man behind.
Apparently those that don't complete service are second tier people, perhaps not allowed to vote at all, etc. It seems that's okay though, as Johnny's dad is a successful businessman and doesn't want his son to go into the service, so whatever is excluded to those with no service didn't change his mind on it. If anything it's hard to tell because the service seems to have a positive opinion among the young and those that are in it, but everyone else not so much.
The percentages are listed later in the book and this idea is expanded upon as well.
I'm through Chapter 7 and I'm the most interested in the characteristics of the overall society as a whole. There's a lot of hints (and I'm not asking for spoilers). Apparently those that don't complete service are second tier people, perhaps not allowed to vote at all, etc. It seems that's okay though, as Johnny's dad is a successful businessman and doesn't want his son to go into the service, so whatever is excluded to those with no service didn't change his mind on it. If anything it's hard to tell because the service seems to have a positive opinion among the young and those that are in it, but everyone else not so much.
Punishment as a training tool seems fair to be if used appropriately. They gave the guy every chance to get out of it as he was being a total turd. They also made clear at one point to make sure he acknowledged he had been made familiar with the rules. It's his own fault. I do think the accompanying bad conduct release seems a bit harsh, since it's implied that his entire life is totally ruined now. I'm not sure that punishment fits the crime. But I didn't make the rules.
Overall, I like the concept of corporal punishment, particularly for non-military crimes. Prison is stupid and a tax on society, and I'd much rather see something like this caning more prevalent in the real world. It has to be public and humiliating just as in the book. I guess the bad part is I don't want any of it in the hands of most of the current governments, as they'd be flogging so many people for wrongthink it would be a 24/7 operation.
The only other thing that stuck out to be is it seemed like they shrugged off training deaths like it was common and nothing, particularly the part about what I presume is the survival training. Could not such a technologically advanced society monitor this and not let the failures die but retrieve them and give a medical discharge? It didn't sound like they were talking accidents, but just inability to survive the conditions was part of the weeding out process. Maybe I was just reading too much into it.
Only people who have completed a term of service are eligible to vote/hold office. That's what the book means when it talks about 'Franchise'. Most people are content with the freedoms civilians have and never even try to enter the service (I don't remember if the book ever gives a breakdown regarding what exact portion of the federation are 'citizens' vs. 'civilians', but I think it's implied to be single or low double digit percentages who are citizens and entitled to vote.)
Also, I don't think it's right to say they shrug off training deaths as 'nothing'. They had the whole regiment (I think that's the right term), including officers, spend 13 days looking for their bodies, had them buried with full military honors, and I believe (technically) posthumously granted them Citizenship, or at least actual ranks, not just 'Cadet such-and-such'.
I covered this in more detail in my top-level post on this thread, but Heinlen is trying to portray that value is (at least partially) on what something costs someone. The training is harsh, and even sometimes lethal, not only because it must be in order to be effective (or at least is made more effective by that risk), but also because the soldiers will value what they gain through it much more because of that risk.
They do take it seriously, but accept that it's part of the package: push the men (no girls in MI in this novel!) as hard as possible. Doing that involves risks, including deaths.
Heinlein wrote this in the late 50's, so even for Sci-Fi the things we have now (GPS, heartrate & health monitors) were far fetched. They were in the battle suits of course!
I found that part odd as well. The Canadian wilderness is no place to dump a pile of recruits for what, 3-4 days without any equipment at all? It doesn't say the duration, but that they were buck-naked and had to travel 40 miles.
Johnnie killed rabbits with flaked rocks? The guy's a murder machine! (They had some training in that area, of course)
It does say earlier that they could clear 50 miles in 10 hours on the level, so they were dumped only about a day's march away for their survival training
The Rocky Mountains are far from "level". It took 3 days I think? And it gets plenty cold at night, even in summer.
It seemed 'over the top' but he didn't dwell on it, just made the points of recruits dying and MI never leaves a man behind.
The percentages are listed later in the book and this idea is expanded upon as well.