But first and foremost in people's minds is always their self-interest
In order to support this claim and also refute what you’re trying to refute, you’ll need to explain someone choosing to commit suicide, and do so in a way that doesn’t also open the door for hostile propagandists convincing many people to engage in suicidal behavior.
No, and I'm happy to walk anyone else reading through why you're wrong.
First off, the contention is "whether propaganda influences white self-hatred." It's important to remember this is the point, and not what Antonio switched it to, which is "most suicides are the result of propaganda." Indeed, no one was arguing that. This is a common bit of linguistic sleight of hand. I'll go comment by comment to illustrate.
The way the argument unfolds is as follows:
Ahuas responds to a comment about a low number supporting mass deportation by suggesting that "half" of white people believe they deserve to be genocided. Now, I don't think this is a strictly accurate number, but that's not super important. What's important is that Antonio responds and says that this desire for ethnic self-genocide is not a real belief, but that they are claiming to believe that out of self-interest.
MargarineMongoose then says that there is also a good bit of brainwashing driving this sentiment. Antonio responds to that by saying that you can never brainwash someone into believing they deserve to be dead because of their race. Original debate is now established: can you, or can you not, propagandize someone into racial self-destruction?
MargarineMongoose responds to that, saying that while a majority may be acting in self-interest, you can in fact shatter someone's mind such that they don't. This, so the contention goes, is the effect of propaganda.
Antonio then responds, saying that "first and foremost in someone's mind is always self-interest." This is the claim to which I was responding, which, again, has nothing to do with the claim that "most suicides are because of propaganda."
When I respond saying that he needs to address suicide without opening the door to propagandizing people into being suicidal, here is the implication:
Suicide is an easy counterpoint to self-interest; if everyone is always acting out of self-interest first and foremost, which do people ever commit self harm at all?
An easy counterpoint to that is that they could be killing themselves out of self-interest, because their life is so painful that ending it is the self-interested option. For example, a suicide committed out of the shame of being a bum.
The issue is that if you concede someone can commit suicide out of self-interest if they are ashamed of or otherwise hurt by their existence, Antonio's original claim that "people always act out of self-interest" actually means very little (in fact, we could say that he's actually sidestepping Mongoose's point much as he is mine), because you've conceded that shame and other influences can make people hurt themselves out of "self-interest."
Obviously, acknowledging point three would, as I said, open the door to the idea of hostile propagandists causing people to engage in suicidal behavior out of self-interest, as long as they inflict enough shame upon them. This would in turn destroy his claim that white people cannot be convinced to self-genocide because they are protected by their self-interest.
Of course, he cannot acknowledge this without losing the debate, so he pretends that the point was "propaganda causes most suicides," which is vacuous.
In order to support this claim and also refute what you’re trying to refute, you’ll need to explain someone choosing to commit suicide, and do so in a way that doesn’t also open the door for hostile propagandists convincing many people to engage in suicidal behavior.
I think that is fairly easy. I'm not sure there are many people who would argue that most suicides are the result of 'propaganda'.
You are dodging the point, as is typical.
I disagree. I think I addressed the crux of it completely.
No, and I'm happy to walk anyone else reading through why you're wrong.
First off, the contention is "whether propaganda influences white self-hatred." It's important to remember this is the point, and not what Antonio switched it to, which is "most suicides are the result of propaganda." Indeed, no one was arguing that. This is a common bit of linguistic sleight of hand. I'll go comment by comment to illustrate.
The way the argument unfolds is as follows:
Ahuas responds to a comment about a low number supporting mass deportation by suggesting that "half" of white people believe they deserve to be genocided. Now, I don't think this is a strictly accurate number, but that's not super important. What's important is that Antonio responds and says that this desire for ethnic self-genocide is not a real belief, but that they are claiming to believe that out of self-interest.
MargarineMongoose then says that there is also a good bit of brainwashing driving this sentiment. Antonio responds to that by saying that you can never brainwash someone into believing they deserve to be dead because of their race. Original debate is now established: can you, or can you not, propagandize someone into racial self-destruction?
MargarineMongoose responds to that, saying that while a majority may be acting in self-interest, you can in fact shatter someone's mind such that they don't. This, so the contention goes, is the effect of propaganda.
Antonio then responds, saying that "first and foremost in someone's mind is always self-interest." This is the claim to which I was responding, which, again, has nothing to do with the claim that "most suicides are because of propaganda."
When I respond saying that he needs to address suicide without opening the door to propagandizing people into being suicidal, here is the implication:
Obviously, acknowledging point three would, as I said, open the door to the idea of hostile propagandists causing people to engage in suicidal behavior out of self-interest, as long as they inflict enough shame upon them. This would in turn destroy his claim that white people cannot be convinced to self-genocide because they are protected by their self-interest.
Of course, he cannot acknowledge this without losing the debate, so he pretends that the point was "propaganda causes most suicides," which is vacuous.
That is because you have the same capacity to reason as a glass of milk.
And your excellent counterargument demonstrates your impressive reasoning skills.