Guy, the Mari is a hybrid. The fuel calculations are for stop and go city traffic, in which it makes a lot of the regenerative breaking to charge the small battery. I don't know who they got the test driving figures from, but they were a master of low-torque slow acceleration and coasting stops.
Moreover it costs a cool $100 to fill up the tank.
Driving fast, which uses actual torque and does not take advantage of the hybrid system uses a LOT more fuel.
Do you really have the idea that a haulage truck or a delivery van could get the same advantages?
Not everyone, especially commercial vehicles can operate on such low torque. I certainly don't trust the quoted range figures.
Consumption is officially rated at 0.7kg of hydrogen per 100km. After a handful of different drivers on nothing but 50–70km/h stop-start streets, the Mirai indicated a 0.88kg/100km figure, which is about 25 per cent over its claim
It is noted that fuel is basically only available in California, and that this vehicle was built to satisfy California laws that demand "Zero Emission Vehicles"
How about we see a Hydrogen Fuel Cell Stack fitted to a garbage truck?
But go ahead. Buy one. Put your money where your mouth is. Pay US$17 a kg for fuel. Lets see if the hydrogen price goes down.
If you are right, you will make out like a bandit!
The fuel calculations are for stop and go city traffic, in which it makes a lot of the regenerative breaking to charge the small battery. I don't know who they got the test driving figures from, but they were a master of low-torque slow acceleration and coasting stops.
Dude you're totally delusional about this subject. Mirai's rated by the same EPA cycle that every other car is. It's not off by 50 times lol. Wow.
If the only usage case for hydrogen fuel is driving hybrid passenger vehicles, then you would have a point.
Is that what you mean? Be specific. Or are you imagining a broader use for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles? You have already described hydrogen haulage trucks to deliver the fuel. In your mind, does this hydrogen fuel infrastructure serve any other transport type?
Anything else? Or just those two?
If you are trucking energy to the user, and each truck contains (say) 1 / 50th of the energy. How many trucks of gas will you require for a drop-in replacement for transport fuel? There are some efficiency gains, because fuel cells are more efficent at converting fuel to motion, but this is absolutely offset by the inefficiencies to store the energy in the form of hydrogen. A diesel engine is something like 35% efficent. Stem reforming hydrogen production is a lot less efficent than that.
I'll make this as simple as I can.
In fact, a road tanker which transports high pressure hydrogen as compressed gas might typically carry 300–400 kg of H2 and be able to refuel up to about 100 cars.
Whereas a typical diesel tanker typically carries between 20,800 to 43,900 L in the USA.
Large trucks typically have capacities ranging from 5,500 to 11,600 US gallons (20,800 to 43,900 L; 4,580 to 9,660 imp gal). In Australia, road trains up to four trailers in length (known as Quad tankers) carry loads in excess of 120,000 litres (26,000 imp gal; 32,000 US gal)
"In fact, a road tanker which transports high pressure hydrogen as compressed gas might typically carry 300–400 kg of H2 and be able to refuel up to about 100 cars."
At what pressure? What trailer size? This is a meaningless number in isolation and hydrogen calc say it's probably like 200 bar or less.
I'm not going to buy some dude's book to get the data, but there's already commercially available tanks over 2x that pressure for long tube format and 3x is easily achieved.
So your gas tanker that can power ~500 cars vs 100 cars for hydrogen instead of needing 5x more tanker trips (not 50x like your wild claim) becomes maybe 50% more trips. Future tech could even make H2 take fewer trips, whereas gasoline will never have less volume and take fewer trips than today.
This is why you can't just take random facts you've seen and assemble them into an argument.
Typically, hydrogen is transported in tube trailers in the UK. A typical trailer (see Figure 1) would be filled to 228 bar, and would carry around 300 kg of hydrogen.
Tube trailers are currently limited to pressures of 250 bar by U.S. Department of Transportation regulations. Typically pressurized gas is transported between 150 and 250 bar.
Guy, it isn't unusual for a Diesel car to get a thousand km out of a tank of diesel. I have owned diesel cars that have that kind of range.
Keep plugging away, guy. I am sure that step by step you are actually learning something about energy distribution, despite your best efforts.
I really am done spelling things out for you. Thanks for coming.
Guy, the Mari is a hybrid. The fuel calculations are for stop and go city traffic, in which it makes a lot of the regenerative breaking to charge the small battery. I don't know who they got the test driving figures from, but they were a master of low-torque slow acceleration and coasting stops.
Moreover it costs a cool $100 to fill up the tank.
Driving fast, which uses actual torque and does not take advantage of the hybrid system uses a LOT more fuel.
Do you really have the idea that a haulage truck or a delivery van could get the same advantages?
Read about it yourself.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-toyota-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-cell-sedan-key-takeaways/#:~:text=The%202021%20Toyota%20Mirai%20is%2C%20at%20its%20heart%2C,hybrid%20%E2%80%94which%20acts%20as%20a%20buffer%20of%20sorts.
Not everyone, especially commercial vehicles can operate on such low torque. I certainly don't trust the quoted range figures.
From https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/2021-toyota-mirai-fcev-first-drive-review/
It is noted that fuel is basically only available in California, and that this vehicle was built to satisfy California laws that demand "Zero Emission Vehicles"
How about we see a Hydrogen Fuel Cell Stack fitted to a garbage truck?
But go ahead. Buy one. Put your money where your mouth is. Pay US$17 a kg for fuel. Lets see if the hydrogen price goes down.
If you are right, you will make out like a bandit!
Dude you're totally delusional about this subject. Mirai's rated by the same EPA cycle that every other car is. It's not off by 50 times lol. Wow.
If the only usage case for hydrogen fuel is driving hybrid passenger vehicles, then you would have a point.
Is that what you mean? Be specific. Or are you imagining a broader use for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles? You have already described hydrogen haulage trucks to deliver the fuel. In your mind, does this hydrogen fuel infrastructure serve any other transport type?
Anything else? Or just those two?
If you are trucking energy to the user, and each truck contains (say) 1 / 50th of the energy. How many trucks of gas will you require for a drop-in replacement for transport fuel? There are some efficiency gains, because fuel cells are more efficent at converting fuel to motion, but this is absolutely offset by the inefficiencies to store the energy in the form of hydrogen. A diesel engine is something like 35% efficent. Stem reforming hydrogen production is a lot less efficent than that.
I'll make this as simple as I can.
Whereas a typical diesel tanker typically carries between 20,800 to 43,900 L in the USA.
I'm done here. Have a great day.
At what pressure? What trailer size? This is a meaningless number in isolation and hydrogen calc say it's probably like 200 bar or less.
I'm not going to buy some dude's book to get the data, but there's already commercially available tanks over 2x that pressure for long tube format and 3x is easily achieved.
So your gas tanker that can power ~500 cars vs 100 cars for hydrogen instead of needing 5x more tanker trips (not 50x like your wild claim) becomes maybe 50% more trips. Future tech could even make H2 take fewer trips, whereas gasoline will never have less volume and take fewer trips than today.
This is why you can't just take random facts you've seen and assemble them into an argument.
https://www.thechemicalengineer.com/features/hydrogen-transport/
Tube trailers are currently limited to pressures of 250 bar by U.S. Department of Transportation regulations. Typically pressurized gas is transported between 150 and 250 bar.
Guy, it isn't unusual for a Diesel car to get a thousand km out of a tank of diesel. I have owned diesel cars that have that kind of range.
Keep plugging away, guy. I am sure that step by step you are actually learning something about energy distribution, despite your best efforts.
I really am done spelling things out for you. Thanks for coming.