I'm just trying to figure out where the problem is according to you: with the vaccines themselves, or with the way they were sold to the public.
Sorry, I misunderstood. You were asking a hypothetical. Anyway, to answer your question; both.
There were definitely a ton of lies and coercion around the vaccines, which is wrong, but the vaccine itself is also faulty in my opinion.
Suppose there was full, informed constent by the said authorities and EXPERTS...Is that OK?
Mostly, yes. Although I do have concerns with letting relatively untested and new things out into the general population; I think there's a lot of potential danger there.
But, yes, if they were upfront with everything, and there were no mandates, that would certainly be a start. I've never said people shouldn't be able to get the vaccine, although I suppose I did indirectly by saying I don't think it was in a state to pass use authorizations. But as long as people were informed just how experimental and untested it was...that's something at least.
There were definitely a ton of lies and coercion around the vaccines, which is wrong, but the vaccine itself is also faulty in my opinion.
And I can even agree with you in that, in that I don't think that the vaccine was perfect or as good as people wanted it to be - ergo faulty. But the alternative is nothing.
I'll even agree with you that natural immunity is better, which is backed with ample evidence. But you have to be infected to get natural immunity, and I'd rather not that my grandfather or father gets infected with no protection.
Mostly, yes. Although I do have concerns with letting relatively untested and new things out into the general population; I think there's a lot of potential danger there.
I mean, even as I presented the hypothetical to you in order to figure out what you think, I had my own concerns. Because it may be incompatible to free something for the public while remaining objective about it. Too much money is at stake, and the health authorities are too corrupt - see Oxycontin.
That said, I continue to believe that the vaccines were a net benefit. More of a net benefit now that there is basically no coercion. That does not prevent me from acknowledging the many things that went wrong, though it is less than you would say was wrong.
I've never said people shouldn't be able to get the vaccine, although I suppose I did indirectly by saying I don't think it was in a state to pass use authorizations. But as long as people were informed just how experimental and untested it was...that's something at least.
Someone just called me a 'fence-sitter' on the matter. But surely you don't have to go all in one side or the other. And frankly, I strongly suspect that many people who now attack the vaccine (not you) would be supporting it if Trump was re-elected.
I think it's interesting this thread is still so active. For the record, I didn't downvote you.
But the alternative is nothing.
I believe the vaccine is fairly useless, and I don't think 'nothing' is a big difference, but I realize that's not something many people can accept, and that's fine.
But you have to be infected to get natural immunity, and I'd rather not that my grandfather or father gets infected with no protection.
False premise, in my opinion, considering it doesn't seem to impart much protection, and can cause issues. So you could get hit anyway before 'immunity' kicks in, you could get vaccine side effects that outweigh the benefits, etc. It's really hard to measure, though, and I could very well be wrong. And it's situational. There are people who had their lives saved by the vaccine, I'm sure.
That said, I continue to believe that the vaccines were a net benefit.
Whether it goes to the degree of being a net benefit is a different story and, again, hard to measure. Personally I lean toward no, though.
Someone just called me a 'fence-sitter' on the matter. But surely you don't have to go all in one side or the other.
True, but I also believe there is a more correct side and a less correct side. Not calling you a fence-sitter, for the record. I think that's pretty silly.
And frankly, I strongly suspect that many people who now attack the vaccine (not you) would be supporting it if Trump was re-elected.
Supporting the vaccine? I doubt it. Some, maybe. But I think the lines have been drawn. I think people know where they stand, and plenty of people - his own supporters - were calling Trump out when he was still the president.
Me? I was off the Trump train for a while. Then the midterms happened, and the Republican leadership showed themselves to be even more traitorous than expected. Trump, sadly, has a ton of character flaws...but I think he's a useful tool to, among other things, reshape the Republican party into something better. He'll also be less authoritarian toward me than almost any Democrat. I'm fairly reluctantly back on the Trump train for now.
I think it's interesting this thread is still so active. For the record, I didn't downvote you.
Nor do I downvote you, I enjoy the conversation.
I believe the vaccine is fairly useless, and I don't think 'nothing' is a big difference, but I realize that's not something many people can accept, and that's fine.
It's not necessarily that I can't accept it. It's just that I haven't seen convincing evidence for it. It's a pretty extraordinary claim, because it does go against the grain of most of the evidence I've seen, so I do expect extraordinary evidence. Talking about hospitalization/death.
So you could get hit anyway before 'immunity' kicks in, you could get vaccine side effects that outweigh the benefits, etc.
Well yeah, that is definitely a possible. But that is why I mentioned people of rather advanced age, for whom the benefits are greatest and side-effects (at least myocarditis) the least. I think we agree that if the benefits outweigh the side-effects by 10-1, hypothetically, that it would be worth it, not? If they were even, there's little point in getting the vaccine. They have to at least substantially outweigh the costs.
True, but I also believe there is a more correct side and a less correct side. Not calling you a fence-sitter, for the record. I think that's pretty silly.
It's extremely hurtful. I like being called anti-vaxx by pro-vaxx and a vax-pusher by the anti-Covid-vax crowd. Same as I'm called far-right by people on the left and far-left by people on the right.
If you take two positions, it's easy to say who is more wrong, but to say who is 'more wrong'. The pro-vaxx are more wrong because their stupid actually has real-world consequences. The folks who are on the extreme end of the anti-Covid-vaxx say dumber stuff, so by that measure they are more wrong. E.g. our very own Imp saying that 90% would die from the vaccine.
Supporting the vaccine? I doubt it. Some, maybe. But I think the lines have been drawn. I think people know where they stand, and plenty of people - his own supporters - were calling Trump out when he was still the president.
Partisanship is a helluva drug. If Kamala Harris were calling out vaccine side-effects, people would be very interested in trying to refute that. Even in the form of "I'm no fan of this vaccine myself, BUT".
Admittedly, I'm predisposed to believe in people's hypocrisy as I believe people to be quite wicked - everyone, not just the left. But at the very least, the criticism of hte vaccine came from the left when T was President.
Then the midterms happened, and the Republican leadership showed themselves to be even more traitorous than expected.
I'm quite happy with McCarthy, especially after the concessions. It's basically the best we could have expected.
Trump, sadly, has a ton of character flaws...but I think he's a useful tool to, among other things, reshape the Republican party into something better. He'll also be less authoritarian toward me than almost any Democrat. I'm fairly reluctantly back on the Trump train for now.
For me, it's not about substance. Trump losing means a third party bid or Trump not supporting the GOP candidate, which means disaster. So it's Trump or bust, though obviously, if he loses I will support a DeSantis - but not a Romney.
Sorry, I misunderstood. You were asking a hypothetical. Anyway, to answer your question; both.
There were definitely a ton of lies and coercion around the vaccines, which is wrong, but the vaccine itself is also faulty in my opinion.
Mostly, yes. Although I do have concerns with letting relatively untested and new things out into the general population; I think there's a lot of potential danger there.
But, yes, if they were upfront with everything, and there were no mandates, that would certainly be a start. I've never said people shouldn't be able to get the vaccine, although I suppose I did indirectly by saying I don't think it was in a state to pass use authorizations. But as long as people were informed just how experimental and untested it was...that's something at least.
And I can even agree with you in that, in that I don't think that the vaccine was perfect or as good as people wanted it to be - ergo faulty. But the alternative is nothing.
I'll even agree with you that natural immunity is better, which is backed with ample evidence. But you have to be infected to get natural immunity, and I'd rather not that my grandfather or father gets infected with no protection.
I mean, even as I presented the hypothetical to you in order to figure out what you think, I had my own concerns. Because it may be incompatible to free something for the public while remaining objective about it. Too much money is at stake, and the health authorities are too corrupt - see Oxycontin.
That said, I continue to believe that the vaccines were a net benefit. More of a net benefit now that there is basically no coercion. That does not prevent me from acknowledging the many things that went wrong, though it is less than you would say was wrong.
Someone just called me a 'fence-sitter' on the matter. But surely you don't have to go all in one side or the other. And frankly, I strongly suspect that many people who now attack the vaccine (not you) would be supporting it if Trump was re-elected.
I think it's interesting this thread is still so active. For the record, I didn't downvote you.
I believe the vaccine is fairly useless, and I don't think 'nothing' is a big difference, but I realize that's not something many people can accept, and that's fine.
False premise, in my opinion, considering it doesn't seem to impart much protection, and can cause issues. So you could get hit anyway before 'immunity' kicks in, you could get vaccine side effects that outweigh the benefits, etc. It's really hard to measure, though, and I could very well be wrong. And it's situational. There are people who had their lives saved by the vaccine, I'm sure.
Whether it goes to the degree of being a net benefit is a different story and, again, hard to measure. Personally I lean toward no, though.
True, but I also believe there is a more correct side and a less correct side. Not calling you a fence-sitter, for the record. I think that's pretty silly.
Supporting the vaccine? I doubt it. Some, maybe. But I think the lines have been drawn. I think people know where they stand, and plenty of people - his own supporters - were calling Trump out when he was still the president.
Me? I was off the Trump train for a while. Then the midterms happened, and the Republican leadership showed themselves to be even more traitorous than expected. Trump, sadly, has a ton of character flaws...but I think he's a useful tool to, among other things, reshape the Republican party into something better. He'll also be less authoritarian toward me than almost any Democrat. I'm fairly reluctantly back on the Trump train for now.
Nor do I downvote you, I enjoy the conversation.
It's not necessarily that I can't accept it. It's just that I haven't seen convincing evidence for it. It's a pretty extraordinary claim, because it does go against the grain of most of the evidence I've seen, so I do expect extraordinary evidence. Talking about hospitalization/death.
Well yeah, that is definitely a possible. But that is why I mentioned people of rather advanced age, for whom the benefits are greatest and side-effects (at least myocarditis) the least. I think we agree that if the benefits outweigh the side-effects by 10-1, hypothetically, that it would be worth it, not? If they were even, there's little point in getting the vaccine. They have to at least substantially outweigh the costs.
It's extremely hurtful. I like being called anti-vaxx by pro-vaxx and a vax-pusher by the anti-Covid-vax crowd. Same as I'm called far-right by people on the left and far-left by people on the right.
If you take two positions, it's easy to say who is more wrong, but to say who is 'more wrong'. The pro-vaxx are more wrong because their stupid actually has real-world consequences. The folks who are on the extreme end of the anti-Covid-vaxx say dumber stuff, so by that measure they are more wrong. E.g. our very own Imp saying that 90% would die from the vaccine.
Partisanship is a helluva drug. If Kamala Harris were calling out vaccine side-effects, people would be very interested in trying to refute that. Even in the form of "I'm no fan of this vaccine myself, BUT".
Admittedly, I'm predisposed to believe in people's hypocrisy as I believe people to be quite wicked - everyone, not just the left. But at the very least, the criticism of hte vaccine came from the left when T was President.
I'm quite happy with McCarthy, especially after the concessions. It's basically the best we could have expected.
For me, it's not about substance. Trump losing means a third party bid or Trump not supporting the GOP candidate, which means disaster. So it's Trump or bust, though obviously, if he loses I will support a DeSantis - but not a Romney.