You do realize that you are arguing for eugenics right? Or at the very least Social Darwinism.
Even Buddhists Monks, who spend their whole lives training with a focus on self awareness and self improvement, realize that not all people are capable of understanding themselves. Some people are just not capable; either by genetics (they are just too stupid) or by circumstance which is mostly lack of motivation. These people are shackled to the animal-self and react only to external stimulus. I'd argue that they are not even really sentient.
What should happen to these people? Just ... put them on boats like the Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B? That would be kind of hard on them, right?
A just society should have a way for them to contribute and to find the happiness they can. Most of them can hold down a job and pay bills and taxes. They just ... live day to day, paycheck to paycheck. They cheer for the Raiders like their dad did and vote Democrat because they live in California, and that is what everyone does.
No society in the history of the world has figured out how to force them into self-actualization. The closest we have come is post industrial WASP culture; which made them useful and productive rather than dissatisfied and rebellious.
You do realize that you are arguing for eugenics right? Or at the very least Social Darwinism
No, because I'm not. I'm asking people to grow up, and it says something about you that you think basic introspection and self-awareness is a physical impossibility for most people.
These people are shackled to the animal-self and react only to external stimulus. I'd argue that they are not even really sentient.
This is just an explicitly anti-human position. I hope your family and friends are capable of defending themselves from you, should you decide to end their lives for being too much of an inconvenience, since you see them as nothing more than non-sentient animals.
You're a fucking school shooter waiting to happen.
Apparently, you've not met enough humans to realize that you're the worthless, unthinking, piece of shit undeserving of tolerance and sympathy.
Guy, I don't kill animals. I have a cat. Why should I despise them for being what they are? Why would you project that onto me?
Why are you so emotional discussing this? We are discussing free will and self actualization, which has been meat and potatoes for philosophers for hundreds of years.
Here, I'll give you a snap-shot of the discussion.
Current thinking is that instincts (the baked in hardware of the neural framework on which your mind runs) do more than half the work of what you consider to be "thinking". Your brain is a very, very optimized real-time system and has a lot of specialized hardware to allow it to keep up with the relentless pressures of a real time environment with saber tooth tigers and poison berries.
Just take your visual cortex for example, it has specialized neural groups that resolve faces into archetypical components with weightings. Your brain matches faces it knows to the weights from the archetypes; it is performing actions very similar to modern facial recognition software.
Having specialized visual hardware to deal with faces allows us to recognize the faces of our friends and family hundreds of times faster; which can be a critical survival trait in a battle. It is a short-cut, but it is also a trade-off in that it occurs much faster than conscious thought, and it has limitations. This optimization is the reason that: "All [foreign] faces look the same to me"; which changes if their face recognition hardware is trained on a larger sample group.
That is just part of the social adaptions made in the processing hardware of our brain!
We have others. All primates imitate the behavior of the most successful member of their group. Humans imitate the behavior of the most successful and each other. The repercussions of this change to our hardware are vast. Humans can cooperate with other humans who we haven't met and don't know. This moves the upper limit of our groups to logistical constraints rather than social constraints.
The downside for our ability to build towns, cities and nations is that sometimes these tendencies get into a feedback loop of dysfunctional behavior, and it leads us to genocide; For example the Chinese Great Leap Forward, or the Killing Fields of Cambodia.
Humans are unique among other primates in that we have the ability to become aware of the pressures and tendencies of our instincts, of our neural hardware imperatives, and to moderate how much influence they have on a particular decision. Nonetheless, it is our hardware optimizations make society possible and allow the continuation of our species.
I'll give you a concrete example of what I mean. You, Gizortnik, don't choose to be attracted to members of the opposite sex. It remains a major motivating factor in your behavior in many, many situations. Men competing to provide women with resources has been the primary driving force of first tribal groups and then society for literally a million years. If humans could depreciate that behavior and choose who we were attracted to I imagine that civilization would implode in short order.
That established, In my view every human is on a continuum that slides between instincts and self-determined behavior. I think most humans, but especially women, are not self aware enough to know why they do what they do; and as a result can not make self aware decisions. They think they do, but they are mostly reacting to their internal drives in a way that is utterly predictable if you understand both the drives and the stimulus.
The idea that for the first time in a million years of history we might educate every member of our society and elevate them to self awareness and self actualization ... well it is a utopian fantasy. To make it happen would require something on the order of reeducation camps and truly motivating negative consequences for failure to participate. Even then, I am not sure the results would be worth the effort. It is unnerving you don't recognize this.
Are you sure everyone who disagrees with you on this is a murdering psychopath? I'll let you walk that one back if you like. You have debated with me a few times, and I'd like to think you remember me. I certainly remember you. This ad hominem bullshit is very much beneath you. I am not a psychopath, please stop pretending that I am. It may feel like winning, but I am sure you are self-aware to know that there is a difference.
But perhaps you were just having a bad day?
Feel better Gizortnik. Much luck with the Secret Jewish Subversion.
I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to condemn you for having an anti-human perspective, when anti-human perspectives are fucking everywhere in society and promoting civilizaitonal collapse.
And such positions are absolutely prevalent in the west, whether physicists are claiming that the universe is entirely determinist, Haidt arguing that moral choice literally doesn't exist, people popularly arguing that Thanos did nothing wrong, Twats on Twitter celebrating mass incarceration because "Nature is healing", Criminalists arguing that terrorism/race riots/religious riots/stabbings/armed robberies are all caused by 'society' and not any individual action or choice, to left wing politicians and political activists embracing Rousseau's "Reign of Terror" in order to physically coerce people into complying with mass injections against both their and their doctors consent, Žižek calling for starvation as a weapon of terror to comply with vaccine mandates, Australians publicly defending concentration camps to force compliance, to medical ethicists arguing that public water supplies should be poisoned with sedatives to make people more compliant, even down to abortionists having an anti-natalist perspective that babies oppress women.
When you dismiss human agency, you also dismiss moral agency, and you start excusing unlimited levels of violence for the clarion call of Utilitarianism. All of these actions are taken with the idea in mind that people can't make choices, and so they must be forced into making the "choice" that has been approved for them by their betters.
You cite the Great Leap Forward and the Killing Fields. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to stop by demanding introspection and self-awareness in everyone around me. The reason those things happened is because Leftist regimes imparted fatalistic, deterministic, black-pilled, slave-mentalities onto people who proceeded to let it happen. There's a phrase that goes, "every country is 3 days away from a revolution because of bread riots". Well, thanks to those slave mentalities, we know that isn't true because Communists regularly starved the rebellion out of people to the point of eating each other, rather than the regime.
That's what this anti-human deterministic perspective does. It's not that humans are inherently incapable of will or choice because we are nothing but electro-chemical response mechanism that (despite being the greatest learning machine in all of evolution) are physically incapable of learning organically with experience, introspection, and reflection.
No, instead, we are living in a time where our neighbors, friends, and family are being psychologically conditioned thorough industrial-scale emotional abuse by the Social Justice Racket to acquiesce to the demands and attacks of the most pathologically psychotic and insane child rapists to ever wield power. A psychological conditioning that teaches you something that is the opposite of truth: humans can choose, humans can improve.
My emotional attack on that is an attack on the emotional security you have in that philosophy. I'm attacking that, because it is a weaponized parasite, implanted into you by enemies that want you dead, and know that the de-moralization of society through the denial of agency generates the perfect suicide bomber. Like all black-pills.
The people you care about are literally too stupid and self-absorbed to even understand your point! Let alone that they have been misled for ... what? Two generations? Three? Normies don't care. That is what makes them normies.
You can't force them to care. Not without concentration camps and death squads. The worst agitators amongst them are literally Stalin's Useful Idiots, and they would be the first up against the wall come the revolution that they crave. It doesn't matter if it is a socialist revolution or a Race revolution or an actual civil war. No one wants these trouble-makers after the fact.
I don't dismiss human agency! I just point out that most people don't want any. Small groups of highly motivated people, in the right place and at the right time, have literally changed the world. It is the only thing that ever has.
The closest I have come to seeing a society wide awareness of these emerging social pressures (critical theory bullshit) are the post Soviet countries. East Germany, etc. I have had conversations with East Germans who are pretty damn aware of the way these things go. The call to fairness, the urging people to "do what is right". Followed by the strong man who promises to sort it all out; then the secret police and the knives in the night. They know where this slick rhetoric leads, and they have taught their kids.
It is the human condition that sheep are common and independent goats are rare. It is literally baked into us on a biological level, and it has allowed us, as a species, to build cities. To rise above villages of (about) 200 people and to record knowledge in our own words that we can hand down to teach the following generations. However while science gives us tools, it is humans who put them to use. We are seeing the old ruling class (now globalists) get their hands on Big Data and the entirety of the press. It is a tool that could do so much good, but ... well. You know. Instead it is being used to peddle post-modern critical theory bullshit in which Step 1 is to burn down civilization and step 2 is Utopia.
I would very much like there to be a way to wake up normies. I really would! But I don't hate them for being normies. I have tried to convince clever, motivated people with every reason to reach understanding. They just start to think of me as anti-social, racist and generally unhinged. Facts literally don't matter to their feelings, and they don't like the way these (cited, verifiable) facts make them feel; so they ignore them.
Even avowed anti-globalists with a history of protesting globalist bullshit still don't have an understanding of basic economics, nor the Law of Unintended Consequences when it comes to social programs. Feminism is the dominant political paradigm and there is nothing I can say to change that. Not for a single person. I have tried! I am no longer invited to Christmas parties, I have literally lost friends!
There are people who understand, who can see my points. They have either started from a very conservatives upbringing (not much found in the English speaking world) or they have gone on their own journey of discovery. It is certainly the reason I hang out here. There are heaps of Tools, but we (mostly) got on this wild ride together.
So I must accept my limitations. I must accept the world as it is, or I will go mad. When I receive new facts, I must incorporate them into my internal model of the world.
And yeah, my Magic 8 Ball tells me that things are going to get tough. Fortunately I live a long, long way from a city with a million people in it. I have useful skills and friends and a family that gives a shit (even if they won't listen).
But I don't despise normies. I don't even despise the functionally stupid, which is probably about 35% of the population. I hope that the stimulus will lead to an appropriate response that is less than catastrophic; But I must accept that their feelings don't care about my facts. Even just to hold a job and feed my kids, I must accept that.
Gizortnik, take heart. When the future arrives, it will not be evenly distributed. It will start somewhere and spread to elsewhere as people and ideas move.
Socialisms is inherently unstable. Fascism less so (see PR China) but even then no regime has been all encompassing. Even China will snuff itself out thanks to their meddling with demographics.
There are too many advantages of actual education and actual national institutions. They will return. Just ... possibly not in the forms that we have come to love, and possibly not in our lifetimes. I just try to focus on my kids and building my future one day at a time.
But please, stop trying to paint me as a damn psychopath. You know me better than that.
You do realize that you are arguing for eugenics right? Or at the very least Social Darwinism.
Even Buddhists Monks, who spend their whole lives training with a focus on self awareness and self improvement, realize that not all people are capable of understanding themselves. Some people are just not capable; either by genetics (they are just too stupid) or by circumstance which is mostly lack of motivation. These people are shackled to the animal-self and react only to external stimulus. I'd argue that they are not even really sentient.
What should happen to these people? Just ... put them on boats like the Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B? That would be kind of hard on them, right?
A just society should have a way for them to contribute and to find the happiness they can. Most of them can hold down a job and pay bills and taxes. They just ... live day to day, paycheck to paycheck. They cheer for the Raiders like their dad did and vote Democrat because they live in California, and that is what everyone does.
No society in the history of the world has figured out how to force them into self-actualization. The closest we have come is post industrial WASP culture; which made them useful and productive rather than dissatisfied and rebellious.
No, because I'm not. I'm asking people to grow up, and it says something about you that you think basic introspection and self-awareness is a physical impossibility for most people.
This is just an explicitly anti-human position. I hope your family and friends are capable of defending themselves from you, should you decide to end their lives for being too much of an inconvenience, since you see them as nothing more than non-sentient animals.
You're a fucking school shooter waiting to happen.
Apparently, you've not met enough humans to realize that you're the worthless, unthinking, piece of shit undeserving of tolerance and sympathy.
Guy, I don't kill animals. I have a cat. Why should I despise them for being what they are? Why would you project that onto me?
Why are you so emotional discussing this? We are discussing free will and self actualization, which has been meat and potatoes for philosophers for hundreds of years.
Here, I'll give you a snap-shot of the discussion.
Psychology Today: "Do We Have Free Will?"
Socratic Dialogue 'Does Man Have Free Will' By David P. Diaz, Ed.D
Current thinking is that instincts (the baked in hardware of the neural framework on which your mind runs) do more than half the work of what you consider to be "thinking". Your brain is a very, very optimized real-time system and has a lot of specialized hardware to allow it to keep up with the relentless pressures of a real time environment with saber tooth tigers and poison berries.
Just take your visual cortex for example, it has specialized neural groups that resolve faces into archetypical components with weightings. Your brain matches faces it knows to the weights from the archetypes; it is performing actions very similar to modern facial recognition software.
Having specialized visual hardware to deal with faces allows us to recognize the faces of our friends and family hundreds of times faster; which can be a critical survival trait in a battle. It is a short-cut, but it is also a trade-off in that it occurs much faster than conscious thought, and it has limitations. This optimization is the reason that: "All [foreign] faces look the same to me"; which changes if their face recognition hardware is trained on a larger sample group.
That is just part of the social adaptions made in the processing hardware of our brain!
We have others. All primates imitate the behavior of the most successful member of their group. Humans imitate the behavior of the most successful and each other. The repercussions of this change to our hardware are vast. Humans can cooperate with other humans who we haven't met and don't know. This moves the upper limit of our groups to logistical constraints rather than social constraints.
The downside for our ability to build towns, cities and nations is that sometimes these tendencies get into a feedback loop of dysfunctional behavior, and it leads us to genocide; For example the Chinese Great Leap Forward, or the Killing Fields of Cambodia.
Humans are unique among other primates in that we have the ability to become aware of the pressures and tendencies of our instincts, of our neural hardware imperatives, and to moderate how much influence they have on a particular decision. Nonetheless, it is our hardware optimizations make society possible and allow the continuation of our species.
I'll give you a concrete example of what I mean. You, Gizortnik, don't choose to be attracted to members of the opposite sex. It remains a major motivating factor in your behavior in many, many situations. Men competing to provide women with resources has been the primary driving force of first tribal groups and then society for literally a million years. If humans could depreciate that behavior and choose who we were attracted to I imagine that civilization would implode in short order.
That established, In my view every human is on a continuum that slides between instincts and self-determined behavior. I think most humans, but especially women, are not self aware enough to know why they do what they do; and as a result can not make self aware decisions. They think they do, but they are mostly reacting to their internal drives in a way that is utterly predictable if you understand both the drives and the stimulus.
The idea that for the first time in a million years of history we might educate every member of our society and elevate them to self awareness and self actualization ... well it is a utopian fantasy. To make it happen would require something on the order of reeducation camps and truly motivating negative consequences for failure to participate. Even then, I am not sure the results would be worth the effort. It is unnerving you don't recognize this.
Are you sure everyone who disagrees with you on this is a murdering psychopath? I'll let you walk that one back if you like. You have debated with me a few times, and I'd like to think you remember me. I certainly remember you. This ad hominem bullshit is very much beneath you. I am not a psychopath, please stop pretending that I am. It may feel like winning, but I am sure you are self-aware to know that there is a difference.
But perhaps you were just having a bad day?
Feel better Gizortnik. Much luck with the Secret Jewish Subversion.
I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to condemn you for having an anti-human perspective, when anti-human perspectives are fucking everywhere in society and promoting civilizaitonal collapse.
And such positions are absolutely prevalent in the west, whether physicists are claiming that the universe is entirely determinist, Haidt arguing that moral choice literally doesn't exist, people popularly arguing that Thanos did nothing wrong, Twats on Twitter celebrating mass incarceration because "Nature is healing", Criminalists arguing that terrorism/race riots/religious riots/stabbings/armed robberies are all caused by 'society' and not any individual action or choice, to left wing politicians and political activists embracing Rousseau's "Reign of Terror" in order to physically coerce people into complying with mass injections against both their and their doctors consent, Žižek calling for starvation as a weapon of terror to comply with vaccine mandates, Australians publicly defending concentration camps to force compliance, to medical ethicists arguing that public water supplies should be poisoned with sedatives to make people more compliant, even down to abortionists having an anti-natalist perspective that babies oppress women.
When you dismiss human agency, you also dismiss moral agency, and you start excusing unlimited levels of violence for the clarion call of Utilitarianism. All of these actions are taken with the idea in mind that people can't make choices, and so they must be forced into making the "choice" that has been approved for them by their betters.
You cite the Great Leap Forward and the Killing Fields. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to stop by demanding introspection and self-awareness in everyone around me. The reason those things happened is because Leftist regimes imparted fatalistic, deterministic, black-pilled, slave-mentalities onto people who proceeded to let it happen. There's a phrase that goes, "every country is 3 days away from a revolution because of bread riots". Well, thanks to those slave mentalities, we know that isn't true because Communists regularly starved the rebellion out of people to the point of eating each other, rather than the regime.
That's what this anti-human deterministic perspective does. It's not that humans are inherently incapable of will or choice because we are nothing but electro-chemical response mechanism that (despite being the greatest learning machine in all of evolution) are physically incapable of learning organically with experience, introspection, and reflection.
No, instead, we are living in a time where our neighbors, friends, and family are being psychologically conditioned thorough industrial-scale emotional abuse by the Social Justice Racket to acquiesce to the demands and attacks of the most pathologically psychotic and insane child rapists to ever wield power. A psychological conditioning that teaches you something that is the opposite of truth: humans can choose, humans can improve.
My emotional attack on that is an attack on the emotional security you have in that philosophy. I'm attacking that, because it is a weaponized parasite, implanted into you by enemies that want you dead, and know that the de-moralization of society through the denial of agency generates the perfect suicide bomber. Like all black-pills.
Gizortnik,
The people you care about are literally too stupid and self-absorbed to even understand your point! Let alone that they have been misled for ... what? Two generations? Three? Normies don't care. That is what makes them normies.
You can't force them to care. Not without concentration camps and death squads. The worst agitators amongst them are literally Stalin's Useful Idiots, and they would be the first up against the wall come the revolution that they crave. It doesn't matter if it is a socialist revolution or a Race revolution or an actual civil war. No one wants these trouble-makers after the fact.
I don't dismiss human agency! I just point out that most people don't want any. Small groups of highly motivated people, in the right place and at the right time, have literally changed the world. It is the only thing that ever has.
The closest I have come to seeing a society wide awareness of these emerging social pressures (critical theory bullshit) are the post Soviet countries. East Germany, etc. I have had conversations with East Germans who are pretty damn aware of the way these things go. The call to fairness, the urging people to "do what is right". Followed by the strong man who promises to sort it all out; then the secret police and the knives in the night. They know where this slick rhetoric leads, and they have taught their kids.
It is the human condition that sheep are common and independent goats are rare. It is literally baked into us on a biological level, and it has allowed us, as a species, to build cities. To rise above villages of (about) 200 people and to record knowledge in our own words that we can hand down to teach the following generations. However while science gives us tools, it is humans who put them to use. We are seeing the old ruling class (now globalists) get their hands on Big Data and the entirety of the press. It is a tool that could do so much good, but ... well. You know. Instead it is being used to peddle post-modern critical theory bullshit in which Step 1 is to burn down civilization and step 2 is Utopia.
I would very much like there to be a way to wake up normies. I really would! But I don't hate them for being normies. I have tried to convince clever, motivated people with every reason to reach understanding. They just start to think of me as anti-social, racist and generally unhinged. Facts literally don't matter to their feelings, and they don't like the way these (cited, verifiable) facts make them feel; so they ignore them.
Even avowed anti-globalists with a history of protesting globalist bullshit still don't have an understanding of basic economics, nor the Law of Unintended Consequences when it comes to social programs. Feminism is the dominant political paradigm and there is nothing I can say to change that. Not for a single person. I have tried! I am no longer invited to Christmas parties, I have literally lost friends!
There are people who understand, who can see my points. They have either started from a very conservatives upbringing (not much found in the English speaking world) or they have gone on their own journey of discovery. It is certainly the reason I hang out here. There are heaps of Tools, but we (mostly) got on this wild ride together.
So I must accept my limitations. I must accept the world as it is, or I will go mad. When I receive new facts, I must incorporate them into my internal model of the world.
And yeah, my Magic 8 Ball tells me that things are going to get tough. Fortunately I live a long, long way from a city with a million people in it. I have useful skills and friends and a family that gives a shit (even if they won't listen).
But I don't despise normies. I don't even despise the functionally stupid, which is probably about 35% of the population. I hope that the stimulus will lead to an appropriate response that is less than catastrophic; But I must accept that their feelings don't care about my facts. Even just to hold a job and feed my kids, I must accept that.
Gizortnik, take heart. When the future arrives, it will not be evenly distributed. It will start somewhere and spread to elsewhere as people and ideas move.
Socialisms is inherently unstable. Fascism less so (see PR China) but even then no regime has been all encompassing. Even China will snuff itself out thanks to their meddling with demographics.
There are too many advantages of actual education and actual national institutions. They will return. Just ... possibly not in the forms that we have come to love, and possibly not in our lifetimes. I just try to focus on my kids and building my future one day at a time.
But please, stop trying to paint me as a damn psychopath. You know me better than that.