Here's the problem with 40K in a nutshell: Games Workshop never cared. They never cared about the lore, which they deemed non-canon, they never cared about the fanbase, which they sought to milk like cows, and they never cared about the game, making it a pay-to-win scheme where the newer units get buffed while older units get nerfed. Games Workshop always saw this whole thing as an exercise in getting more money. Take a good look as to how they handle their lore:
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer, Games Workshop
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW
"There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP."
Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series
.
"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history…
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.
I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.
.
It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."
Marc Gascoigne, former head and chief editor of the Black Library
And of course, the original 40K was made as a woke series in the first place. 40K lore author Rick Priestley talks about how brutal and self-deluding the Space Marines are, which is why he is mystified as to why the new lore treats them like heroes:
"To me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic. The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they're brutal, but they're also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don't know whether he's alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There's no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft. It's got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten."
Rick Priestley, Warhammer 40K lore author and creator, in a December 2015 interview with Unplugged Games
.
40K as an IP has one of the most leftist, SJW inspirations a series could ever have. More so than Star Trek. More so than Disney Star Wars. Their whole premise for 40K is that the religious nationalist types, as exemplified by the Imperium of Man, are bad. Their Empire is a den of superstition, authoritarianism, and backwards-ass thinking, they shoot themselves in the foot so many times, from the Horus Heresy, to the regime of Goge Vandire, to the 10K years of suffering, chaos, war, and poverty that the Imperium went through because they're led by retarded religious nationalists who shoot anyone that can be a potential ally and don't even bother advancing their tech over 10K years. That's why things are so grimdark: not because of the threats humanity faces, but because humanity is controlled by religious nationalist types who have their heads so far up their power-armored butts they're screwing humanity just as much as the aliens, daemons, and heretics are.
For 10K years, they've been using the same stupid bolters, flying the same stupid starships, and leading the same large masses of cannon fodder armed with flashlights, all because their religion makes them backwards and retarded, and their Imperium is a bastion of superstition, infighting, callous murder and death, as well as a massive waste of human life. That's basically the opinion these people have about religious and nationalist regimes: they take the worst of the Black Legend, and they amplify it with the worst of the Industrial Era and put it in space. Note how the "enlightened" and "wise" Emperor of mankind is anti-religious, while the people who turned his Imperium into a superstitious nightmare are religious as all hell. You don't get any more leftist than by having your Space Messiah be an anti-religious zealot who hates being worshiped, but is turned into a god by religious nutjobs seeking control over the populace.
.
And all of this because the original writers of 40K were a bunch of leftist nancyboys who were butthurt over Margaret Thatcher and the conservatives having power in England during the 80s. Thatcher and her pals were nowhere near as authoritarian as the Imperium of Man in 40K or the Judges of Judge Dredd, but that's how the leftists who wrote 40K, Judge Dredd, and Watchmen saw it. Some lady rises to power as Prime Minister, with political opinions to the right of Karl Marx, and all these writers, from Alan Moore to Rick Priestley, all start using their works to whine about how such a government is potentially fascist. Basically, the root of 40K and many other British sci-fi works from the 80s is how anyone who isn't a socialist is a Nazi at heart waiting to awaken, just as modern-day SJWs call people Nazis for not agreeing with their left-wing propaganda.
Not to mention that Games Workshop is still based in England, a country so dipped in Soy you might as well sell it in an Asian food market. Of course they were going to go this direction. Of course they were going to appease SJWs. The whole "grimdark" phase was just to show bad things are under right-wingers: how bad things are in the Imperium because of people like them, how the people would rather turn to daemon worship or to the Tau rather than remain under Imperium control, how the war is being run so bad because "boo-hoo, right wing religious nationalists throw masses of soldiers into battle without caring for their lives!" Notice how the socialist Tau can actually give humans a good life, along with permanent contraception so they won't have to worry about kids-something Europeans love with them focusing more on contraception and sex without kids rather than raising the next generation.
.
If GW can chuck the whole "grimdark" thing off the boat to sell generic Space Marines to kids, then they'll do it, especially since kids have parents with fat wallets that spend a lot on things like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Fortnite, while the adult fans range from penny-pinchers who don't like the new prices, people who whine about GW not being consistent with the lore, and people who make their own models. So of course, throwing away an older fanbase for one that has more capital is something GW can and will do, especially since the newer fans are closer to GW's desired SJW demographic, while many of the older fans are the same religious and nationalist folks that the OG 40K was trying to lampoon, which is ironic in itself.
The subversion of 40k can be stopped if fans of the franchise refuse to recognize anti-canonical subversion by GamesWorkshop. There are enough autistic 40k nerds that this should be possible.
For example, lets say GamesWorkshop introduces female Primaris marines. A number of 40k fans cry heresy. At a certain point the outcry becomes significant enough that the 40k Lords of Terra, a council of (some number) highly respected 40k personalities, convene. They cast votes on this issue: Is GamesWorkshop's introduction of female Primaris marines a heretical element?
If no, the element is accepted as canonical. If yes, then the 40k Council considers this element of lore non-canonical. Council members must come to an agreement on how this element is treated, and then update a website that collects lore and rulings related to lore. This resource is maintained solely by the community and is the primary way of tracking the fan-canonical universe.
Eventually if Games Workshop pushes things enough, then the universes diverge. Fortunately, the efforts of the Council up until this point are essentially a version-history of the universe. If GW diverges enough that the universes are no longer compatible, then fans have essentially created their own universe and could easily file the serial numbers off and launch the fan-universe as its own IP.
Way to completely misread "A Canticle for Leibowitz" in which a small group of passionate and faithful devotees successfully reinvent civilization and herald mankinds journey to the stars lol.
Pasting a rant I saw elsewhere. ahem
Here's the problem with 40K in a nutshell: Games Workshop never cared. They never cared about the lore, which they deemed non-canon, they never cared about the fanbase, which they sought to milk like cows, and they never cared about the game, making it a pay-to-win scheme where the newer units get buffed while older units get nerfed. Games Workshop always saw this whole thing as an exercise in getting more money. Take a good look as to how they handle their lore:
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer, Games Workshop
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW
"There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP."
Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series .
"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history…
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.
I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. .
It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."
Marc Gascoigne, former head and chief editor of the Black Library
And of course, the original 40K was made as a woke series in the first place. 40K lore author Rick Priestley talks about how brutal and self-deluding the Space Marines are, which is why he is mystified as to why the new lore treats them like heroes:
"To me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic. The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they're brutal, but they're also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don't know whether he's alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There's no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft. It's got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten."
Rick Priestley, Warhammer 40K lore author and creator, in a December 2015 interview with Unplugged Games .
40K as an IP has one of the most leftist, SJW inspirations a series could ever have. More so than Star Trek. More so than Disney Star Wars. Their whole premise for 40K is that the religious nationalist types, as exemplified by the Imperium of Man, are bad. Their Empire is a den of superstition, authoritarianism, and backwards-ass thinking, they shoot themselves in the foot so many times, from the Horus Heresy, to the regime of Goge Vandire, to the 10K years of suffering, chaos, war, and poverty that the Imperium went through because they're led by retarded religious nationalists who shoot anyone that can be a potential ally and don't even bother advancing their tech over 10K years. That's why things are so grimdark: not because of the threats humanity faces, but because humanity is controlled by religious nationalist types who have their heads so far up their power-armored butts they're screwing humanity just as much as the aliens, daemons, and heretics are.
For 10K years, they've been using the same stupid bolters, flying the same stupid starships, and leading the same large masses of cannon fodder armed with flashlights, all because their religion makes them backwards and retarded, and their Imperium is a bastion of superstition, infighting, callous murder and death, as well as a massive waste of human life. That's basically the opinion these people have about religious and nationalist regimes: they take the worst of the Black Legend, and they amplify it with the worst of the Industrial Era and put it in space. Note how the "enlightened" and "wise" Emperor of mankind is anti-religious, while the people who turned his Imperium into a superstitious nightmare are religious as all hell. You don't get any more leftist than by having your Space Messiah be an anti-religious zealot who hates being worshiped, but is turned into a god by religious nutjobs seeking control over the populace. .
And all of this because the original writers of 40K were a bunch of leftist nancyboys who were butthurt over Margaret Thatcher and the conservatives having power in England during the 80s. Thatcher and her pals were nowhere near as authoritarian as the Imperium of Man in 40K or the Judges of Judge Dredd, but that's how the leftists who wrote 40K, Judge Dredd, and Watchmen saw it. Some lady rises to power as Prime Minister, with political opinions to the right of Karl Marx, and all these writers, from Alan Moore to Rick Priestley, all start using their works to whine about how such a government is potentially fascist. Basically, the root of 40K and many other British sci-fi works from the 80s is how anyone who isn't a socialist is a Nazi at heart waiting to awaken, just as modern-day SJWs call people Nazis for not agreeing with their left-wing propaganda.
Not to mention that Games Workshop is still based in England, a country so dipped in Soy you might as well sell it in an Asian food market. Of course they were going to go this direction. Of course they were going to appease SJWs. The whole "grimdark" phase was just to show bad things are under right-wingers: how bad things are in the Imperium because of people like them, how the people would rather turn to daemon worship or to the Tau rather than remain under Imperium control, how the war is being run so bad because "boo-hoo, right wing religious nationalists throw masses of soldiers into battle without caring for their lives!" Notice how the socialist Tau can actually give humans a good life, along with permanent contraception so they won't have to worry about kids-something Europeans love with them focusing more on contraception and sex without kids rather than raising the next generation. .
If GW can chuck the whole "grimdark" thing off the boat to sell generic Space Marines to kids, then they'll do it, especially since kids have parents with fat wallets that spend a lot on things like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Fortnite, while the adult fans range from penny-pinchers who don't like the new prices, people who whine about GW not being consistent with the lore, and people who make their own models. So of course, throwing away an older fanbase for one that has more capital is something GW can and will do, especially since the newer fans are closer to GW's desired SJW demographic, while many of the older fans are the same religious and nationalist folks that the OG 40K was trying to lampoon, which is ironic in itself.
This is the correct take, HOWEVER:
The subversion of 40k can be stopped if fans of the franchise refuse to recognize anti-canonical subversion by GamesWorkshop. There are enough autistic 40k nerds that this should be possible.
For example, lets say GamesWorkshop introduces female Primaris marines. A number of 40k fans cry heresy. At a certain point the outcry becomes significant enough that the 40k Lords of Terra, a council of (some number) highly respected 40k personalities, convene. They cast votes on this issue: Is GamesWorkshop's introduction of female Primaris marines a heretical element?
If no, the element is accepted as canonical. If yes, then the 40k Council considers this element of lore non-canonical. Council members must come to an agreement on how this element is treated, and then update a website that collects lore and rulings related to lore. This resource is maintained solely by the community and is the primary way of tracking the fan-canonical universe.
Eventually if Games Workshop pushes things enough, then the universes diverge. Fortunately, the efforts of the Council up until this point are essentially a version-history of the universe. If GW diverges enough that the universes are no longer compatible, then fans have essentially created their own universe and could easily file the serial numbers off and launch the fan-universe as its own IP.
/thread
Way to completely misread "A Canticle for Leibowitz" in which a small group of passionate and faithful devotees successfully reinvent civilization and herald mankinds journey to the stars lol.
Never heard of it.
Looking it up...not gonna lie, this sounds pretty cool!
It's my favourite book. We should nominate it for the book club because it is awesome.