Punishment is a foolish, moralistic, idealist concern. Foreign policy, especially wars, should come down to what's in our interest.
Nevertheless, if punishment is your desire, it would what have made more sense and been far less costly to punish the intelligence organizations and military. The US created the terrorists in the first place. The CIA trained Bin Laden. Where is their punishment?
By 2019, the US troop footprint & expense was so small that we could have maintained at that level for another 20 years easily, and by that point Afghanistan culture finally would have reached a point of being self-sustaining against the Taliban.
I don't buy that. The US made zero "cultural progress" in 20 years. What good is another 20? 2x0=0.
For the record, though, I'm against Western cultural imperialism, and I would have reformed the US effort in Afghanistan to accurately reflect the political will of Afghan men, and let them have a Constitution based on Sharia law
So you wanted to make Afghanistan into another Saudi Arabia, basically? I don't see how that's helpful.
The problem is that Bush and his neocon friends tried to impose Jeffersonian democracy in Afghanistan, which wasn't really in our interest. No one wanted to face the fact that those "poor and innocent" civilians hate us just as much as the terrorists, and there was no solution to the Afghanistan problem that didn't deal with the terrorist sympathizing population. Letting those animals choose their own government leads to a terrorist regime. The Taliban is exactly what those goat fuckers want.
Since genociding that hateful population wasn't a realistic option we should have installed a civilized dictator that was willing to torture Islamists to death to stay in power. Think Mubarak if Mubarak had balls when shit got rough.
Yes, but with one change: Stand by them when times get tough like Russia and China instead of stabbing them in the back like our politicians. But thinking about it that won't ever happen either. We're just too squeamish to stand by our dictators when they do what's necessary. So maybe there are no good options. I get that you're saying we should stay out of foreign adventures and you're correct, but for all of Bush 43's fuckups he pretty much inherited 9/11. There's no realistic timeline where he does nothing in response. So the question becomes how he should have handled it.
We're just too squeamish to stand by our dictators when they do what's necessary.
The US has stood by many a dictator. It is a bit harder to do when it's LARPing as a benevolent liberator. People aren't falling for that shit anymore so it's become harder to export its ideals.
Punishment is a foolish, moralistic, idealist concern.
Not at all. It's called "deterrence". America's next enemy will think twice if it sees how we fucked up the Taliban. Conversely America's enemies will be encouraged by a show of weakness, just as Putin began to build up to attack Ukraine shortly after Biden cucked out of Afghanistan.
Foreign policy, especially wars, should come down to what's in our interest.
It is in our long term interest to punish and deter our enemies. To make an example out of them.
The US created the terrorists in the first place. The CIA trained Bin Laden.
False and false. That's just conspiracy theory nonsense. Nobody even alleges that the CIA "trained" Bin Laden. Some fools have argued that US support to the mujahadeen meant that some arms tricked down to Bin Laden, but that have made these assertions completely without any proof, and these claims have been refuted at length by numerous sources in a position to know, as well as by Bin Laden himself. Foreign fighters like Bin Laden only represented about 1% of the total rebel forces in Afghanistan, and none of the aid funneled through Pakistan (NONE came direct from the CIA) went to them.
I don't buy that. The US made zero "cultural progress" in 20 years. What good is another 20? 2x0=0.
We did not make 0. It takes time for new generations to grow up in the new system. After 40 years, you'd have nearly the whole fighting age population growing up under a system normalized to western rights. It would have meant that men would have been willing to fight for women, as both their wives and their daughters would be at stake. 20 years was not enough for that.
So you wanted to make Afghanistan into another Saudi Arabia, basically? I don't see how that's helpful.
If that's what the Afghani people want, it isn't our place to dictate their culture to them. Our only objective should have been "let's create a stable system that reflects their cultural values, BUT WITHOUT TERRORISM" and that's it.
LOL. The US military, the one with the biggest budget in the world, couldn't defeat a bunch of inbred goatfuckers in 20 years. How is that intimidating anyone?
these claims have been refuted at length by numerous sources in a position to know
"The CIA investigated the CIA and concluded the CIA did nothing wrong."
We did not make 0.
Yes "we" did. The only thing to show that the US was ever there are all the advanced weapons and technology we left behind.
After 40 years, you'd have nearly the whole fighting age population growing up under a system normalized to western rights.
The "western rights" that you are talking about sap the will of the population. They haven't successfully been exported anywhere since, IIRC, arguably the Korean War. No one wants what we are selling anymore, and why would they? The US is a dysfunctional mess of any oligarchy.
If that's what the Afghani people want, it isn't our place to dictate their culture to them.
You say this yet for "some reason" you keep finding yourself defending US cultural imperialism at the point of a gun, very peculiar.
LOL. The US military, the one with the biggest budget in the world, couldn't defeat a bunch of inbred goatfuckers in 20 years.
The US military did, in fact, defeat the Taliban, consistently, many times. The US military is not able to kill an "idea" such as the hard core islamist beliefs the Taliban embodied, unless you allow it to just genocide everyone, which is a political limitation, not a military one.
If Biden had said in August 2021 "you know what, fuck this, go fuck up the Taliban and push them back into their caves", the US military 100% could have done it.
"The CIA investigated the CIA and concluded the CIA did nothing wrong."
None of my sources/research were based on CIA sources. It was everyone in the (other parts of) government, historians and researchers, and even people in the mujahadeen & bin laden himself.
The "western rights" that you are talking about sap the will of the population. They haven't successfully been exported anywhere since, IIRC, arguably the Korean War.
Huh? Japan. West Germany. Italy. Korea. Taiwan. All those countries got absorbed into Western "liberal democracy" standards. It has been successful in almost all cases, just not in muslim countries for the obvious reasons of total incompatibility.
Taiwan is the only one I overlooked. The rest were either part of WWII fallout or shortly after. The US has also failed at exporting libdem in several cases in Latin America. It's even failed in Ukraine. It's not just Muslim countries. People have started to notice that the US bombs the shit out of places, installs dictators, and then acts like it actually cares about any of these people so it's harder to sell that bull shit. The cracks in our system have been starting to show so people aren't believing it anymore even domestically.
Punishment is a foolish, moralistic, idealist concern. Foreign policy, especially wars, should come down to what's in our interest.
Nevertheless, if punishment is your desire, it would what have made more sense and been far less costly to punish the intelligence organizations and military. The US created the terrorists in the first place. The CIA trained Bin Laden. Where is their punishment?
I don't buy that. The US made zero "cultural progress" in 20 years. What good is another 20? 2x0=0.
So you wanted to make Afghanistan into another Saudi Arabia, basically? I don't see how that's helpful.
The problem is that Bush and his neocon friends tried to impose Jeffersonian democracy in Afghanistan, which wasn't really in our interest. No one wanted to face the fact that those "poor and innocent" civilians hate us just as much as the terrorists, and there was no solution to the Afghanistan problem that didn't deal with the terrorist sympathizing population. Letting those animals choose their own government leads to a terrorist regime. The Taliban is exactly what those goat fuckers want.
Since genociding that hateful population wasn't a realistic option we should have installed a civilized dictator that was willing to torture Islamists to death to stay in power. Think Mubarak if Mubarak had balls when shit got rough.
So basically try the Iranian strategy but hope it works better this time?
Yes, but with one change: Stand by them when times get tough like Russia and China instead of stabbing them in the back like our politicians. But thinking about it that won't ever happen either. We're just too squeamish to stand by our dictators when they do what's necessary. So maybe there are no good options. I get that you're saying we should stay out of foreign adventures and you're correct, but for all of Bush 43's fuckups he pretty much inherited 9/11. There's no realistic timeline where he does nothing in response. So the question becomes how he should have handled it.
The US has stood by many a dictator. It is a bit harder to do when it's LARPing as a benevolent liberator. People aren't falling for that shit anymore so it's become harder to export its ideals.
Not at all. It's called "deterrence". America's next enemy will think twice if it sees how we fucked up the Taliban. Conversely America's enemies will be encouraged by a show of weakness, just as Putin began to build up to attack Ukraine shortly after Biden cucked out of Afghanistan.
It is in our long term interest to punish and deter our enemies. To make an example out of them.
False and false. That's just conspiracy theory nonsense. Nobody even alleges that the CIA "trained" Bin Laden. Some fools have argued that US support to the mujahadeen meant that some arms tricked down to Bin Laden, but that have made these assertions completely without any proof, and these claims have been refuted at length by numerous sources in a position to know, as well as by Bin Laden himself. Foreign fighters like Bin Laden only represented about 1% of the total rebel forces in Afghanistan, and none of the aid funneled through Pakistan (NONE came direct from the CIA) went to them.
We did not make 0. It takes time for new generations to grow up in the new system. After 40 years, you'd have nearly the whole fighting age population growing up under a system normalized to western rights. It would have meant that men would have been willing to fight for women, as both their wives and their daughters would be at stake. 20 years was not enough for that.
If that's what the Afghani people want, it isn't our place to dictate their culture to them. Our only objective should have been "let's create a stable system that reflects their cultural values, BUT WITHOUT TERRORISM" and that's it.
LOL. The US military, the one with the biggest budget in the world, couldn't defeat a bunch of inbred goatfuckers in 20 years. How is that intimidating anyone?
"The CIA investigated the CIA and concluded the CIA did nothing wrong."
Yes "we" did. The only thing to show that the US was ever there are all the advanced weapons and technology we left behind.
The "western rights" that you are talking about sap the will of the population. They haven't successfully been exported anywhere since, IIRC, arguably the Korean War. No one wants what we are selling anymore, and why would they? The US is a dysfunctional mess of any oligarchy.
You say this yet for "some reason" you keep finding yourself defending US cultural imperialism at the point of a gun, very peculiar.
The US military did, in fact, defeat the Taliban, consistently, many times. The US military is not able to kill an "idea" such as the hard core islamist beliefs the Taliban embodied, unless you allow it to just genocide everyone, which is a political limitation, not a military one.
If Biden had said in August 2021 "you know what, fuck this, go fuck up the Taliban and push them back into their caves", the US military 100% could have done it.
None of my sources/research were based on CIA sources. It was everyone in the (other parts of) government, historians and researchers, and even people in the mujahadeen & bin laden himself.
Huh? Japan. West Germany. Italy. Korea. Taiwan. All those countries got absorbed into Western "liberal democracy" standards. It has been successful in almost all cases, just not in muslim countries for the obvious reasons of total incompatibility.
Taiwan is the only one I overlooked. The rest were either part of WWII fallout or shortly after. The US has also failed at exporting libdem in several cases in Latin America. It's even failed in Ukraine. It's not just Muslim countries. People have started to notice that the US bombs the shit out of places, installs dictators, and then acts like it actually cares about any of these people so it's harder to sell that bull shit. The cracks in our system have been starting to show so people aren't believing it anymore even domestically.