From the outset, I told you data from the era sucked, and I'm not digging through microfilm archives to convince you that Greenwoods 200 businesses and 6 paved roads weren't a massive civilization achievement (that they rebuilt in about 4 years).
I never said these people worked in the oil fields. I said Tusla was a boomtown, which brings a criminal element. Grifters, shysters and thugs, trying to get in on some of the wealth that's flowing. It happens everywhere a town booms. This made it a high crime area (again, find your own microfilm), but also a place where people needed and could afford servants and shoeshines. Most of the black population of Greenwood served as menial labor in Tulsa. Those 200 businesses probably didn't even employ 10% of Greenwoods 10,000 inhabitants, but I'm just basing that on the fact that hardly any of the businesses would have likely had more than 2-3 workers. The Stradford is exceptional in that, and I don't see many other exceptions.
If it were just Black British and African Americans, I might be inclined to give it some credence, but violence seems universal to black populations anywhere on the globe. Maybe you actually believe Ghana's reported homicide rate, but that's on you. Same as your belief in a Wakandan Greenwood.
As to the end, they're referencing both the high crime and vigilantism. When a town booms and crime rises, inadequate legal institutions fail, and people tend to take matters into their own hands. That's not really a Tulsa thing, just a pattern that often played out across the US.
E: Let's go back a little bit, here.
It was prosperous by all the data I've seen
What data have you seen that suggested this? I think the only thing I've come across that would even come close to such an appraisal is an Ebony article.
From the outset, I told you data from the era sucked, and I'm not digging through microfilm archives to convince you that Greenwoods 200 businesses and 6 paved roads weren't a massive civilization achievement (that they rebuilt in about 4 years).
I'm not telling you to, I'm saying you don't have evidence for your assertion that it was absolutely crime ridden.
That's really what the problem is here. I'm willing to be convinced by data, but we don't fucking have any. I don't think it's fair to just assert high crime because of the race of the inhabitants, which despite your best efforts of back-rationalizing, you were ascribing to race. Which was stupid.
Actually, reading up on it more over the last couple of days, the stretch from downtown Tulsa and into Greenwood main street was considered the vice area, where you could find booze and prostitutes. So yeah... my initial impression seems to be increasingly validated the more I read.
Anyway, I attribute crime to race, because that's what you see in every fucking socioeconomic decile but the absolute top, which as even you acknowledge filters out the worst anti-social behaviors. Your worldview only works in extreme cases, which would cause a rational person to question its validity.
Vice in Tulsa existed primarily on the borders—the outer edges of town and the areas between downtown and Greenwood on First Street and near the Frisco railroad depot. Rooming houses were sites around which much of the vice activity in Tulsa revolved. These existed in Greenwood as well. In a 1921 Report on Vice Conditions in Tulsa, agents reported visiting rooming houses in Greenwood as well as other areas of Tulsa, where they gambled, procured booze, and the company of women. Influential Tulsans—both blackand white—owned a number of these houses. Among them were O.W. Gurley in Greenwood and Tate Brady, a white Tulsan who was instrumental in bringing the Ku Klux Klan into the city. The report noted that much of the vice activity occurred under the noses of Tulsa policemen, who turned a blind eye. The agents who wrote this report appeared less concerned with the illegal activities of those they encountered in their undercover work and were more focused on looking into the role of the Tulsa Police Force in the prevalence of vice within the city.
That's it?
Seriously?!! You took "clearly Greenwood was a hive of scum and villany" from '1920's vice market occurred on in the red-light district on the edge of Greenwood'.
Come the fuck on, man. The only thing out of place in that statement is that those establishments weren't owned by the fucking mob.
I get that we're not gonna find any good, hard, statistics, but this is reaching. What you're describing is standard procedure for any American city in 1920.
In a 1920 report, the Colored Public Health Nurse of Tulsa wrote that one outdoor toilet was shared by eight houses—and one of those houses had eleven rooms. Only six blocks of Greenwood’s streets were paved and on the ditch-lined, dirt roads of the remaining twenty-nine blocks, cows, chickens, dogs, and other animals roamed freely.117 Another report written that same year by the American Association of Social Workers stated that while the report painted “a rather dismal picture, the colored community has very outstanding assets—its people.”
Seems to capture the reality of Greenwood pretty well.
"clearly Greenwood was a hive of scum and villany"
Your words. Not mine.
It was a prosperous middle-class neighborhood.
Your words. Not mine.
The truth is in the middle. Stop being so hyperbolic.
This one's gonna take a while, but I'm happy to look it over. Concerned about PSU, though.
Your worldview only works in extreme cases, which would cause a rational person to question its validity.
I don't have a weltanschauung as you imagine it. You still seem to think that I asserted that poverty was the corollary of crime, but it isn't. I just know that some impact on interpersonal violent crime at particularly large magnitudes.
Good. Me neither. But I've compared crime rates of random meth infested WV and KY former coal towns, and can't seem to find any place in the black belt with similar population and unemployment that comes close with black populations over 35%. I'm looking for the unicorn, too, believe it or not. Not that it's representative, but I'd love some contrary evidence.
When I speak of genetic inclination, it's only relevant towards impulsive acts. I fully believe whites and asians are more predisposed to premeditated crime, though it's not something I've looked too deeply into. But premeditation speaks to reason, so it makes sense. It's also doesn't seem to be the primary problem with violence.
From the outset, I told you data from the era sucked, and I'm not digging through microfilm archives to convince you that Greenwoods 200 businesses and 6 paved roads weren't a massive civilization achievement (that they rebuilt in about 4 years).
I never said these people worked in the oil fields. I said Tusla was a boomtown, which brings a criminal element. Grifters, shysters and thugs, trying to get in on some of the wealth that's flowing. It happens everywhere a town booms. This made it a high crime area (again, find your own microfilm), but also a place where people needed and could afford servants and shoeshines. Most of the black population of Greenwood served as menial labor in Tulsa. Those 200 businesses probably didn't even employ 10% of Greenwoods 10,000 inhabitants, but I'm just basing that on the fact that hardly any of the businesses would have likely had more than 2-3 workers. The Stradford is exceptional in that, and I don't see many other exceptions.
If it were just Black British and African Americans, I might be inclined to give it some credence, but violence seems universal to black populations anywhere on the globe. Maybe you actually believe Ghana's reported homicide rate, but that's on you. Same as your belief in a Wakandan Greenwood.
As to the end, they're referencing both the high crime and vigilantism. When a town booms and crime rises, inadequate legal institutions fail, and people tend to take matters into their own hands. That's not really a Tulsa thing, just a pattern that often played out across the US.
E: Let's go back a little bit, here.
What data have you seen that suggested this? I think the only thing I've come across that would even come close to such an appraisal is an Ebony article.
I'm not telling you to, I'm saying you don't have evidence for your assertion that it was absolutely crime ridden.
That's really what the problem is here. I'm willing to be convinced by data, but we don't fucking have any. I don't think it's fair to just assert high crime because of the race of the inhabitants, which despite your best efforts of back-rationalizing, you were ascribing to race. Which was stupid.
Actually, reading up on it more over the last couple of days, the stretch from downtown Tulsa and into Greenwood main street was considered the vice area, where you could find booze and prostitutes. So yeah... my initial impression seems to be increasingly validated the more I read.
https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5631&context=open_access_etds
Pages 37-39 if you're interested.
Anyway, I attribute crime to race, because that's what you see in every fucking socioeconomic decile but the absolute top, which as even you acknowledge filters out the worst anti-social behaviors. Your worldview only works in extreme cases, which would cause a rational person to question its validity.
That's it?
Seriously?!! You took "clearly Greenwood was a hive of scum and villany" from '1920's vice market occurred on in the red-light district on the edge of Greenwood'.
Come the fuck on, man. The only thing out of place in that statement is that those establishments weren't owned by the fucking mob.
I get that we're not gonna find any good, hard, statistics, but this is reaching. What you're describing is standard procedure for any American city in 1920.
No, you're being intentionally obtuse.
Here's probably the most relevant bit.
Seems to capture the reality of Greenwood pretty well.
Your words. Not mine.
Your words. Not mine.
The truth is in the middle. Stop being so hyperbolic.
This one's gonna take a while, but I'm happy to look it over. Concerned about PSU, though.
I don't have a weltanschauung as you imagine it. You still seem to think that I asserted that poverty was the corollary of crime, but it isn't. I just know that some impact on interpersonal violent crime at particularly large magnitudes.
Good. Me neither. But I've compared crime rates of random meth infested WV and KY former coal towns, and can't seem to find any place in the black belt with similar population and unemployment that comes close with black populations over 35%. I'm looking for the unicorn, too, believe it or not. Not that it's representative, but I'd love some contrary evidence.
When I speak of genetic inclination, it's only relevant towards impulsive acts. I fully believe whites and asians are more predisposed to premeditated crime, though it's not something I've looked too deeply into. But premeditation speaks to reason, so it makes sense. It's also doesn't seem to be the primary problem with violence.