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What if we just believe in a natural disproportionate tendency to subvert and exploit which leads to this end, without some vast conspiracy? That okay?
edit: and further, can we discuss the possibilities of inherent moral deficiency without it being an attack? the behavioral genetics of impulse control and such?
I'd rather avoid this place becoming Stormfag central because someone wants to recruit normies to white identitarianism. Frankly I'd rather keep it about video games, but so much speech has been censored off the internet that we have to allow wider topics.
No because that is mostly just motivated reasoning to justify the condemnation of that group. There is no such thing as an innate tendency towards subversion and exploitation. The very concepts of subversion and exploitation are abstract notions that can't be dictated solely by someones genetics.
No because it is, again, clearly motivated reasoning from a conclusion because the argument asserts two things, both of which are false and contradictory to one another. Inherent moral deficiency not only requires measurable, universal, objective morality. Meaning that you can define morality as a absolutely consistent, known, and universal abstraction that can be quantifiably measured. This is a contradiction in terms: an abstraction can't be objectively measured. After that, you require that genetic determinism to create a given level of morality, which removes the very concept of moral agency. That would defeat the purpose of morality itself. I could only conclude that such a contradictory argument exists to rationalize a conclusion which supports a narrative that exists to identify one group as morally inferior to another.
I'd argue the ability to deceive effectively is very innate, and if the most successful of a group are those who can do this well, it puts selection pressure on the group for that trait to become dominant, but beyond that such arguments could certainly be more culturally based. It wouldn't be an all or nothing, of course, and it wouldn't be universally applicable.
I'm not big on moral relativism, myself. I think theft, murder, and rape are objectively wrong, at least within the context western culture. It would lend to moral unsuitability to western culture, though if moral relativism is your bag, that doesn't mean they aren't better suited to a different culture that's of equal value.
Anyway, I understand your concern, but these ideas are some of the most heavily censored in the world. Academic attempts to discredit them never really worked over the last 60 years, so they've resorted to banishment of scientists who look into such fields over ethical concerns here in the last 15 or so. There's a reason free speech havens tends to attract such discussion, since you don't need a free speech haven to talk about cat pictures (yet?).
E: just a study that does seem to show that lying is at least a partly heritable trait https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4852200/
most behavior has a genetic trait, it seems.
If anyone ever figures out where the line is between nature and nurture, feel free to let us know.
It's not really a line, though. It's just potential and actualization.
I think that's nothing more than another argument about the very nature of intelligence itself, but I also don't think that intelligence is innate in the way that it keeps being touted. Intelligence, first, is not genetic in and of itself, it is a measure of multiple things that are informed by genetics. The ability for average IQ's to rise and fall over time in populations suggests to me that how it is being used is a fairly significant abuse of any actual argument about genetics.
Right and behavior might be partially the result of genetics, as well as environment, and environment can even effect genetics as well.
This is a fair point, and the Flynn effect seems very real (though it's seemed to have evaporated in the last decade or two). However, racial disparity is fairly persistent, despite conducive environments for realizing higher potentials of intelligence. The average may rise and fall a standard deviation across the board, but the average deviation between blacks and whites track pretty much the same. Nutrition seems to be a major factor. The rationing of sugar during WW2 correlated strongly with a major boost in IQ in the British youth growing up in that period. Perhaps it was the exercise of rationing itself, though that's unlikely over such a short period of time. Could be the decrease we currently see is also a dietary issue. Maybe it's google and lack of mental exercise.
Potential intelligence is likely genetic in and of itself. Realized intelligence will be a combination of the potential one starts with, and how well the environment is suited to realizing the full potential. I'm not saying there's an intelligence gene, but there are a little over 1000 that we know of so far that interact to create what we call intelligence. In the most basic sense, intelligence is just the ability to apply knowledge.
Environment can certainly effect gene expression and mutation. That's not even debatable. That doesn't mean you're going to turn someone with a max 90 IQ potential into a genius, even with the absolute best environment.
In these discussions though, it's always important to remember that this isn't about an individual (we all vary a lot, even within our families), but the large numbers present in demographic groups, the trends that emerge from those large numbers, and the impacts those trends have on the broader society.
Counterpoint: Islam, China, and trannies.
Not genetics, but we also know that different racial and ethnic groups are predisposed to different behavioral sets.
Why shouldn't that discussion be allowed?
Your reasoning basically bans discussion of morals at all, as the idea of morals themselves comes from a bias and rationalization of an ends based idealism.
Trannies and Muslims aren't a racial / ethnic group. China isn't even an ethnic group, that's just a country.
My counter-counterpoint: why is the culture of a group purely based off of genetic determinism? Can't a culture be inferior by it's actions rather than it's genetic make-up?
No, it just rejects objective morality. You can't speak for morality, as I recall, you are religious. That would be you speaking on behalf of God. Having God's full knowledge of all morality. It's a hell of a claim.
You're allowed to have your own morally subjective opinions, but you can't assert an objective morality.
Ah sorry, I kind of rushed that post.
Let me clarify.
The examples I posted were various groups that we know are or can be incredibly subversive. Not in relation to genetics, but in relation to group status, religion, nationality, etc.
To say that Islam is a subversive agent is in general a very accurate statement. To say that trannies are by their nature deceptive is a rather apt description.
I'm arguing that it's not necessarily a bad or incorrect thing to assign labels, negative or positive, to a group or class.
Yes, it very well can and that's often the case.
On the other hand, there's one group that very obviously and very controversially is inferior by their genetics. Australian Aboriginals. It's an outlier case, yes, but it is an example.
There doesn't need to be a take-away or some grand conspiracy or idealism behind superior/inferior.
I actually agree with you on the idea of there being no real objective morality. It's something that shifts by culture and circumstance.
However, that doesn't mean we can't approach things from a particular angle or culture. American culture DOES have its own set of moralities and we can judge actions or events through that perspective.
In regards to religiosity, mine own does not preclude me from statements of objective or subjective morality. I view God as The Father and Man as The Son. All fathers wish for their son to one day surpass them. The same is true in the religious sense. It is our own duty and responsibility to parse, understand, and begin to change the world towards what we imagine to be better.
In other words: Ours is the drill that creates the Heavens.
The key to shutting down stormfags is acknowledging that WW2 was a race war, no one cared about the jews at that time, no one generally cares about genocide, and all the genocides are bad including what happened in Germany to the jews.
Except it wasn't a race war to pretty much anyone but the Nazi's useful idiots, especially considering how many ethnic Germans were fighting Germany in the US and Russia.
Did you watch the video? It was obviously pitched as as a defensive race war to the Americans. One would find it odd that we would get into a race war between Slavs and Germans. It's due to distributed Leninism. It's a religious peer-to-peer network of ruthlessly immoral, power hungry opportunists. The progressives in our government wanted to help their allies.
The Jews in New York, like John Reed or Walter Duranty, were running around as political operatives. Hitler noticed this, but didn't realize they were happy to see the yids wiped out. As the affluential elite, they saw the eastern europe jews as a stain on their heritage, super WASPs.
FTFY. No need to mince words on your free speech website.
Yes yes, everyone you don't like is
Hitlera jew.If you are unprepared to tolerate the rules, then you can just not be here.