Around me, it's still mostly "keep politics out of it" just because it can be such a toxic environment
I think the only reason we felt comfortable about it was, as you said, the knowledge that we all kinda agreed and it was more an opinion discussion instead of Judgemental Moralization like most Left/Right politics talks get.
Which is something we couldn't have done in years prior because we'd be too scared to admit to being Conservative or doing so in public with others around.
Having normal conversations with people that captured is genuinely difficult
It can be. I've got friends who we just straight agreed to never discuss politics around each other and maintain enough respect for each other as a person to not break that. We both agree that the other will never sway to our side, so we instead just be friends.
But I maintain that a lot people are far less captured than they seem. I've pulled feminists from the brink with continuous wearing down of their ideology through examples and in their face actions, same with many minorities about their own race or immigrants in general. Its a very delicate push and pull act, and not always successful, but I think most people are so obsessed with getting their "CHECKMATE LIBERAL" virtue signal and jerking themselves off about how they are The Most Anti-Woke that they burn that bridge before it can even be conceptualized.
To keep with my work example. While the TDS guy isn't likely to budge, constantly prodding him jovially and watching him sperg out has done wonders in shaking up people who agree with him on pure optics alone. Especially when you point out regularly how you "can't discuss this normally because he is around" to really drive the point home about how damaging that type of rhetoric is and how you are a "safe" person to discuss with.
What's even funnier about that is that he is in essence my direct supervisor and someone I have a strong working relationship with that is almost mentor level. Yet by maintaining a non-confrontational attitude every time he goes on his rant about felons and racism, its turned the back and forth into more of a bit (he calls me racist daily because I hate Mexican food) instead of an actual battle.
If we can't agree that blacks were not systematically genocided in a fire-bombing campaign in the US, then we really don't have anything we can agree upon.
There is a huge issue of people turning "the really bad" events of history into this basic catchall where literally every evil thing imaginable is either included or seems plausible that it happened. Where the evil of "the bad guys" was so cartoonish that they truly believe in hilariously contradictory or maddening things.
Its particular bad (at least in America) with black history, Indian history, and Nazis/Holocaust stuff. Wherein people will claim fucking anything happened and then treat it as actual history just because "well people were evil, so they'd do literally anything evil."
its turned the back and forth into more of a bit (he calls me racist daily because I hate Mexican food) instead of an actual battle.
Perfect. Love it.
But really, you're right that it's very much that 'give-and-take' effort. There's a lot of... sensitivity... you have to manage. And "Checkmate Liberal" clearly ran it's course at least 6 years ago. Facts & Logic clearly didn't do shit to dissuade the Branch Covidians.
Its particular bad (at least in America) with black history, Indian history, and Nazis/Holocaust stuff. Wherein people will claim fucking anything happened and then treat it as actual history just because "well people were evil, so they'd do literally anything evil."
It's intentional due to the educational system. What's worse is that it also makes people who were evil so cartoonish and reductive that it effectively mitigates the crimes. I always remember a comment from Bart on the Simpsons after one of their Season 1 episodes where the town went into a water balloon war; and he mentioned that "All wars are bad, except World War 2, which was a good war." contrasted with the unmitigated horror that seemed to plague all sides of the deadliest conflict in human history. The oversimplification aided the intentional efforts of reductionism and obfuscation to lay the groundwork of the boomer narrative; followed by the utility of trying to apply it to every situation.
Facts & Logic clearly didn't do shit to dissuade the Branch Covidians.
One of the most important lessons I've seen, that almost no one on the Right ever seems to recognize, is that Lefties operate entirely on the assumption that their opponents are caricatures and stereotypes they've built of a Right-winger. And their NPC programming can't handle much deviation from that.
If you don't react in a manner they can anticipate or use a line they have a counter for, then they are often left floundering. And if you aren't currently engaged in battle verbally, most people will instinctively default to polite/neutral response in that situation. And that creates an in for you.
Facts & Logic is always both a battle and a system they anticipate. So even if you catch them in what should be a complete collapse of their beliefs, it accomplishes nothing but getting you an epic video/screenshot to post to sites like this.
It's intentional due to the educational system.
I'm aware. I did most of my public education in Louisiana, which had two literal guilt months a year in Feb/Nov for Black and Indian education to really pound into us how evil we were and give us constant abuse porn about what we did to them.
It was such a huge issue we actually just dropped a lot of actual history lessons entirely. I didn't have a single instance of WW1 ever covered before high school in a different state, and WW2 was basically a cliffnote rushed in at the end of the year with everything after being forgotten. Ironic for those who believe the Jews are Mega 6d Chess Ultra IQ Geniuses responsible for a lot of this that their own "pity me" event got shafted hard enough to skip propagandizing a large swath of the population for a group that is basically already dead.
What's worse is that it also makes people who were evil so cartoonish and reductive that it effectively mitigates the crimes
Which is how you reach points where Hitler and Nazis are unironically getting redemption arcs in the modern era, for one example.
I agree that that is the assumption of the Left about the right. However, I've found that the NPC programming is reinforced by sophistry and rhetorical warfare. When you deviate from the narrative, they push you into the narrative with claims of bad faith, reframe your opinions into the narrative, and argue against those opinions they just made up. Sometimes they'll literally try to trick you into saying a trigger word so they can call you a racist, and when you don't say the trigger word, then they claim you are refusing to say it because you caught them out and you are trying to hide it.
Getting into these verbal conflicts is a struggle because if you do debate or argue with them, they'll engage in sophistry and be defensive the entire time, but they also don't want to know any other opinions, they just want you to affirm theirs. This is why it seems like "show don't tell" is basically the only way to actually have an effect on them, because it negates a verbal confrontation entirely.
Which is how you reach points where Hitler and Nazis are unironically getting redemption arcs in the modern era, for one example.
I swear we're gonna see a genuine National Socialist state in or around Ukraine within 50 years, and it's because of the shit we are doing right now.
However, I've found that the NPC programming is reinforced by sophistry and rhetorical warfare
It is. I should say most of those tricks only work offline, wherein the setting is more personal and you have control of the social pressures. Online people have completely different faces, have the ability to call in backup, and genuinely feel more emboldened in their propaganda.
Arguing with people online I find shouldn't really be done with the intent of changing minds, because even if you succeed the programming will just seep back in the gap you created. Its entire purpose is to shore up your own abilities and find where people can pick it apart, so that way when you take it offline you are far more prepared and knowledgeable about how someone will respond.
But offline, the effects of a non-aggressive stance, warm eyes with contact, and a low voice can make the question "well why do you think that" actually incredibly disarming whereas online they'd just scream back about how Men are all rapists or Niggers Niggers Niggers.
Its all basic Psychology. For as worthless of a "science" as it is, they have completely gotten down how to get people to open up and give you their weakpoints to tear them out. Its how they are so effect at brainwashing women into transing out, leaving their husband, and figuring out they were "abused." But they give these tricks away for anyone to read and they are just as effective in real life as they are in a counseling session, likely more so because people don't expect them.
And really, its just reappropriating the Lefties own tactics against them. Or even Cult ones, because even schizo lunatics realized the power of isolation and love bombing people on changing their brain.
I think the only reason we felt comfortable about it was, as you said, the knowledge that we all kinda agreed and it was more an opinion discussion instead of Judgemental Moralization like most Left/Right politics talks get.
Which is something we couldn't have done in years prior because we'd be too scared to admit to being Conservative or doing so in public with others around.
It can be. I've got friends who we just straight agreed to never discuss politics around each other and maintain enough respect for each other as a person to not break that. We both agree that the other will never sway to our side, so we instead just be friends.
But I maintain that a lot people are far less captured than they seem. I've pulled feminists from the brink with continuous wearing down of their ideology through examples and in their face actions, same with many minorities about their own race or immigrants in general. Its a very delicate push and pull act, and not always successful, but I think most people are so obsessed with getting their "CHECKMATE LIBERAL" virtue signal and jerking themselves off about how they are The Most Anti-Woke that they burn that bridge before it can even be conceptualized.
To keep with my work example. While the TDS guy isn't likely to budge, constantly prodding him jovially and watching him sperg out has done wonders in shaking up people who agree with him on pure optics alone. Especially when you point out regularly how you "can't discuss this normally because he is around" to really drive the point home about how damaging that type of rhetoric is and how you are a "safe" person to discuss with.
What's even funnier about that is that he is in essence my direct supervisor and someone I have a strong working relationship with that is almost mentor level. Yet by maintaining a non-confrontational attitude every time he goes on his rant about felons and racism, its turned the back and forth into more of a bit (he calls me racist daily because I hate Mexican food) instead of an actual battle.
There is a huge issue of people turning "the really bad" events of history into this basic catchall where literally every evil thing imaginable is either included or seems plausible that it happened. Where the evil of "the bad guys" was so cartoonish that they truly believe in hilariously contradictory or maddening things.
Its particular bad (at least in America) with black history, Indian history, and Nazis/Holocaust stuff. Wherein people will claim fucking anything happened and then treat it as actual history just because "well people were evil, so they'd do literally anything evil."
Perfect. Love it.
But really, you're right that it's very much that 'give-and-take' effort. There's a lot of... sensitivity... you have to manage. And "Checkmate Liberal" clearly ran it's course at least 6 years ago. Facts & Logic clearly didn't do shit to dissuade the Branch Covidians.
It's intentional due to the educational system. What's worse is that it also makes people who were evil so cartoonish and reductive that it effectively mitigates the crimes. I always remember a comment from Bart on the Simpsons after one of their Season 1 episodes where the town went into a water balloon war; and he mentioned that "All wars are bad, except World War 2, which was a good war." contrasted with the unmitigated horror that seemed to plague all sides of the deadliest conflict in human history. The oversimplification aided the intentional efforts of reductionism and obfuscation to lay the groundwork of the boomer narrative; followed by the utility of trying to apply it to every situation.
One of the most important lessons I've seen, that almost no one on the Right ever seems to recognize, is that Lefties operate entirely on the assumption that their opponents are caricatures and stereotypes they've built of a Right-winger. And their NPC programming can't handle much deviation from that.
If you don't react in a manner they can anticipate or use a line they have a counter for, then they are often left floundering. And if you aren't currently engaged in battle verbally, most people will instinctively default to polite/neutral response in that situation. And that creates an in for you.
Facts & Logic is always both a battle and a system they anticipate. So even if you catch them in what should be a complete collapse of their beliefs, it accomplishes nothing but getting you an epic video/screenshot to post to sites like this.
I'm aware. I did most of my public education in Louisiana, which had two literal guilt months a year in Feb/Nov for Black and Indian education to really pound into us how evil we were and give us constant abuse porn about what we did to them.
It was such a huge issue we actually just dropped a lot of actual history lessons entirely. I didn't have a single instance of WW1 ever covered before high school in a different state, and WW2 was basically a cliffnote rushed in at the end of the year with everything after being forgotten. Ironic for those who believe the Jews are Mega 6d Chess Ultra IQ Geniuses responsible for a lot of this that their own "pity me" event got shafted hard enough to skip propagandizing a large swath of the population for a group that is basically already dead.
Which is how you reach points where Hitler and Nazis are unironically getting redemption arcs in the modern era, for one example.
I agree that that is the assumption of the Left about the right. However, I've found that the NPC programming is reinforced by sophistry and rhetorical warfare. When you deviate from the narrative, they push you into the narrative with claims of bad faith, reframe your opinions into the narrative, and argue against those opinions they just made up. Sometimes they'll literally try to trick you into saying a trigger word so they can call you a racist, and when you don't say the trigger word, then they claim you are refusing to say it because you caught them out and you are trying to hide it.
Getting into these verbal conflicts is a struggle because if you do debate or argue with them, they'll engage in sophistry and be defensive the entire time, but they also don't want to know any other opinions, they just want you to affirm theirs. This is why it seems like "show don't tell" is basically the only way to actually have an effect on them, because it negates a verbal confrontation entirely.
I swear we're gonna see a genuine National Socialist state in or around Ukraine within 50 years, and it's because of the shit we are doing right now.
It is. I should say most of those tricks only work offline, wherein the setting is more personal and you have control of the social pressures. Online people have completely different faces, have the ability to call in backup, and genuinely feel more emboldened in their propaganda.
Arguing with people online I find shouldn't really be done with the intent of changing minds, because even if you succeed the programming will just seep back in the gap you created. Its entire purpose is to shore up your own abilities and find where people can pick it apart, so that way when you take it offline you are far more prepared and knowledgeable about how someone will respond.
But offline, the effects of a non-aggressive stance, warm eyes with contact, and a low voice can make the question "well why do you think that" actually incredibly disarming whereas online they'd just scream back about how Men are all rapists or Niggers Niggers Niggers.
Its all basic Psychology. For as worthless of a "science" as it is, they have completely gotten down how to get people to open up and give you their weakpoints to tear them out. Its how they are so effect at brainwashing women into transing out, leaving their husband, and figuring out they were "abused." But they give these tricks away for anyone to read and they are just as effective in real life as they are in a counseling session, likely more so because people don't expect them.
And really, its just reappropriating the Lefties own tactics against them. Or even Cult ones, because even schizo lunatics realized the power of isolation and love bombing people on changing their brain.