Even though no one of his claims “went too far”, the ones that have the usual suspects shiddin themselves are…thought provoking to say the least. Some interesting commentary happening over at Unz/alt media in general, which is the more interesting/important outcome of this discussion imo.
They are very invested in WW2 being 'the good war', and they in turn vicariously playing the role of 'the good guys' - because it gives them legitimacy. Coincidentally, this is also why even the post-Stalin USSR prohibited Vasily Grossman from publishing his work in which he equated Stalinism with Nazism. The USSR victory in WW2 allowed it to have legitimacy in the eyes of most its people for several decades, and the same is true for the regime in the US and its puppets in Europe.
I do think the way the ultra-right goes about combating this is very counterproductive and wrong.
They are very invested in WW2 being 'the good war', and they in turn vicariously playing the role of 'the good guys' - because it gives them legitimacy.
That’s absolutely a huge part of it, more so in the past than today (which has chosen to suppress the memory of past glory in order to fixate obsessively on alleged shame) - the Narrative(s) told about this time are far more widespread than the realities
I do think the way the ultra-right goes about combating this is very counterproductive and wrong.
I think I know what you mean. When the “enemy” has so completely assumed control of the Narratives, and the Paradigms, and the organs of society, the only proper response is shining the light of truth. Things like fake talmud quotes or purposefully taking things out of context are poisonous, doubly so because there is so much real crime and corruption to expose.
There really is something to be said for “not stooping to their level”. And I’m not saying that in a “oh just turn the other cheek” cop-out, I’m saying: the entire legitimacy of this “new world order” rests on their ability to predict our actions. The worst thing we can do is fall for the same traps that are always set and always sprung. We need to surprise the “powers that be” with something new.
Yeah, exactly my point - best example I can think of, given the despicable nature and insidious cultural results of the real verses (and the surprisingly frequent occurrence of such “fake” verses being smuggled into a set of real ones, leading to dismissal by association).
I’m not sure how often you browse beyond the walls of KiA, but the best user on the site for exposing fake talmud quotes (when they get posted, usually by handshakes) is, in my experiences, TallestSkil, funnily enough. That’s the hardest part of discerning the truth imo, seeing through the bullshit constructed to mislead us based on our biases. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn much if not all of the “fake” stuff originates as deceptive psyops, “poison pills” meant to spread in the discourse and kill the discussion before it can begin.
Though it’s posted to r/judaism in the context of “I’m sure these are fake but I don’t know how”, this helps ensure discussion stays safely within bounds
Here is one of the top responses:
Soferim does not exist. This is a completely fabricated book and quote.
He then goes on to use word-magic to muddy the waters on a few of the other quotes. Is he correct? Only by adopting some excruciating twists of logic. Will (most) everyone who googles “talmud quotes” walk away thinking the whole thing is much ado about nothing? A large amount will, unfortunately.
But yeah, what I mean by “fake” quotes are the ones taken from sources other than the talmud, being presented as “talmud quotes”. Often you’ll see stuff from, e.g. the toledat yeshu added in. Heinous filth of course, but there’s no reason to muddy the waters of our own arguments (when we uncritically share selections with these subverted/smuggled in verses). I’m not talking about the pilpul often used to try and weasel out of the plain meanings of the translations, just the conflation of sources, which happens surprisingly often.
That’s absolutely a huge part of it, more so in the past than today (which has chosen to suppress the memory of past glory in order to fixate obsessively on alleged shame) - the Narrative(s) told about this time are far more widespread than the realities
Both shame and pride can be used to keep the people down. Look at how shame is instrumentalized in Germany and the United States. It's funny, because the German state now demands unquestioning obedience from its subjects based on the fact that the German people with mostly unquestioning obedience followed the Nazis. Obviously, we're very far from trying to learn any useful lessons, rather than trying to manipulate people.
Things like fake talmud quotes or purposefully taking things out of context are poisonous, doubly so because there is so much real crime and corruption to expose.
That is actually not what I meant, but yes, when you presented those quotes from the Talmud I thought "here we go again, it's probably fake as hell". But it turned out you actually had the goods, which was a surprise.
What I mean, in terms of World War 2, is that "Churchill was a psychopath" is not a particularly useful statement. Not just because he was a politician, and if he wasn't less psychopathic than average, he certainly wasn't more so. But it doesn't actually accomplish anything, even you manage to persuade someone of that, which is unlikely.
World War 2 was a colossal failure on the part of the 'allies', both France/England and the USSR. Why on earth would you let them spin that into something positive? There were numerous times at which the Nazis could have been stopped, from the Rhineland takeover to the invasion of Czechoslovakia, with very little bloodshed. If you say the Nazis are bad, and I do grant that, then why would you get any credit for belatedly and at the cost of tens of millions of lives getting rid of them, rather than when it could have been done without much cost?
Incompetence is far more unforgivable than evil. They don't care about their leaders killing a million Iraqis, why should they care about how many Bomber Harris killed? They don't care about Nazi atrocities either. They'd cheer for Nazis if the media told them to, and they do... see Ukraine.
There really is something to be said for “not stooping to their level”.
It's like with the pro-Trump people who thought they could riot because BLM did so. Turns out, BLM can only do so because the ruling class is unanimously on its side. If you do 1/1000 of what they did, they'll come down mercilessly on you: see Jan 6.
Both shame and pride can be used to keep the people down.
Best example today is israel, ironically (?) enough
Look at how shame is instrumentalized in Germany and the United States.
Yeah I think there are a lot of parallels all around the world on this one. I just read someone comparing the slavery Narrative in the US to the colonialism narrative in Europe to the indian mistreatment narrative in Canada and so on and so forth - but now I can’t find it. Unfortunate, because it was spot on with the parallels.
What I mean, in terms of World War 2, is that "Churchill was a psychopath" is not a particularly useful statement.
Ahh, that makes sense. Yeah I guess more broadly this issue is “hyperbolizing / straw manning” the opposition. I see it so often where all people who call themselves “left leaning” are smeared with the worst possible framing of the word. “Everyone’s a deranged commie, they’re all satanists, they want to kill babies” etc etc
99% of people think they are the good guy. The vast, vast majority of those people are reasoning their way to that position, though it must obviously be the case that the vast majority of those are using faulty reasoning in some way(s). Therefore I try to treat the faulty reasoning as the enemy, not the dunce who’s been duped, because I know that often enough I’ve been that dunce.
Even though no one of his claims “went too far”, the ones that have the usual suspects shiddin themselves are…thought provoking to say the least. Some interesting commentary happening over at Unz/alt media in general, which is the more interesting/important outcome of this discussion imo.
It’s being hit bigly by the ol’ streisand effect
They are very invested in WW2 being 'the good war', and they in turn vicariously playing the role of 'the good guys' - because it gives them legitimacy. Coincidentally, this is also why even the post-Stalin USSR prohibited Vasily Grossman from publishing his work in which he equated Stalinism with Nazism. The USSR victory in WW2 allowed it to have legitimacy in the eyes of most its people for several decades, and the same is true for the regime in the US and its puppets in Europe.
I do think the way the ultra-right goes about combating this is very counterproductive and wrong.
That’s absolutely a huge part of it, more so in the past than today (which has chosen to suppress the memory of past glory in order to fixate obsessively on alleged shame) - the Narrative(s) told about this time are far more widespread than the realities
I think I know what you mean. When the “enemy” has so completely assumed control of the Narratives, and the Paradigms, and the organs of society, the only proper response is shining the light of truth. Things like fake talmud quotes or purposefully taking things out of context are poisonous, doubly so because there is so much real crime and corruption to expose.
There really is something to be said for “not stooping to their level”. And I’m not saying that in a “oh just turn the other cheek” cop-out, I’m saying: the entire legitimacy of this “new world order” rests on their ability to predict our actions. The worst thing we can do is fall for the same traps that are always set and always sprung. We need to surprise the “powers that be” with something new.
There's no need for fake talmud quotes.
They (not all) openly tell you that they believe they are god's chosen people.
And what does that make everyone else? It makes them people who were not chosen by god.
Yeah, exactly my point - best example I can think of, given the despicable nature and insidious cultural results of the real verses (and the surprisingly frequent occurrence of such “fake” verses being smuggled into a set of real ones, leading to dismissal by association).
I’m not sure how often you browse beyond the walls of KiA, but the best user on the site for exposing fake talmud quotes (when they get posted, usually by handshakes) is, in my experiences, TallestSkil, funnily enough. That’s the hardest part of discerning the truth imo, seeing through the bullshit constructed to mislead us based on our biases. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn much if not all of the “fake” stuff originates as deceptive psyops, “poison pills” meant to spread in the discourse and kill the discussion before it can begin.
Ay? Which commonly spread ones are fake?
I’ll illustrate with a scenario since everyone has seen different images/posts/articles/etc:
Open gewgle - search for “talmud quotes”, go to images
First result looks exactly like the kind of post we’re talking about (damning talmud quotes)
https://i.redd.it/rrjqxm9eqx9d1.jpeg
Though it’s posted to r/judaism in the context of “I’m sure these are fake but I don’t know how”, this helps ensure discussion stays safely within bounds
Here is one of the top responses:
He then goes on to use word-magic to muddy the waters on a few of the other quotes. Is he correct? Only by adopting some excruciating twists of logic. Will (most) everyone who googles “talmud quotes” walk away thinking the whole thing is much ado about nothing? A large amount will, unfortunately.
But yeah, what I mean by “fake” quotes are the ones taken from sources other than the talmud, being presented as “talmud quotes”. Often you’ll see stuff from, e.g. the toledat yeshu added in. Heinous filth of course, but there’s no reason to muddy the waters of our own arguments (when we uncritically share selections with these subverted/smuggled in verses). I’m not talking about the pilpul often used to try and weasel out of the plain meanings of the translations, just the conflation of sources, which happens surprisingly often.
Both shame and pride can be used to keep the people down. Look at how shame is instrumentalized in Germany and the United States. It's funny, because the German state now demands unquestioning obedience from its subjects based on the fact that the German people with mostly unquestioning obedience followed the Nazis. Obviously, we're very far from trying to learn any useful lessons, rather than trying to manipulate people.
That is actually not what I meant, but yes, when you presented those quotes from the Talmud I thought "here we go again, it's probably fake as hell". But it turned out you actually had the goods, which was a surprise.
What I mean, in terms of World War 2, is that "Churchill was a psychopath" is not a particularly useful statement. Not just because he was a politician, and if he wasn't less psychopathic than average, he certainly wasn't more so. But it doesn't actually accomplish anything, even you manage to persuade someone of that, which is unlikely.
World War 2 was a colossal failure on the part of the 'allies', both France/England and the USSR. Why on earth would you let them spin that into something positive? There were numerous times at which the Nazis could have been stopped, from the Rhineland takeover to the invasion of Czechoslovakia, with very little bloodshed. If you say the Nazis are bad, and I do grant that, then why would you get any credit for belatedly and at the cost of tens of millions of lives getting rid of them, rather than when it could have been done without much cost?
Incompetence is far more unforgivable than evil. They don't care about their leaders killing a million Iraqis, why should they care about how many Bomber Harris killed? They don't care about Nazi atrocities either. They'd cheer for Nazis if the media told them to, and they do... see Ukraine.
It's like with the pro-Trump people who thought they could riot because BLM did so. Turns out, BLM can only do so because the ruling class is unanimously on its side. If you do 1/1000 of what they did, they'll come down mercilessly on you: see Jan 6.
Best example today is israel, ironically (?) enough
Yeah I think there are a lot of parallels all around the world on this one. I just read someone comparing the slavery Narrative in the US to the colonialism narrative in Europe to the indian mistreatment narrative in Canada and so on and so forth - but now I can’t find it. Unfortunate, because it was spot on with the parallels.
Ahh, that makes sense. Yeah I guess more broadly this issue is “hyperbolizing / straw manning” the opposition. I see it so often where all people who call themselves “left leaning” are smeared with the worst possible framing of the word. “Everyone’s a deranged commie, they’re all satanists, they want to kill babies” etc etc
99% of people think they are the good guy. The vast, vast majority of those people are reasoning their way to that position, though it must obviously be the case that the vast majority of those are using faulty reasoning in some way(s). Therefore I try to treat the faulty reasoning as the enemy, not the dunce who’s been duped, because I know that often enough I’ve been that dunce.