It wasn't just the nukes. We also fire bombed their cities too, at a time where most of their buildings were made with wood. The Nukes were the cherry on top of an already shit sundae. That's not even going over that in all likelyhood the US took deliberate actions pre-ward to instigate them into attacking us so we had an excuse to enter WWII.
...there were military and industrial targets at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Of course there were.
We did not drop the bombs there purely to kill the populations of those two cities.
Mixed bag. We dropped the nukes to...drop the nukes. That was the whole point. And we did so with full knowledge that we were nuking civilians. Does the fact that there were also military targets make it any better? No.
Furthermore, in total war, civilian populations are fair targets, because they grow the food that feed the armies, and work in the factories that make armaments.
Yeah, but if one side decides it's total war, that's still evil. You're welcome to argue it's a justified evil, but it's still intentional mass murder of civilians. You can't be the "good guys," demand the other side play by the rules, while breaking all those same rules and murdering a bunch of civilians.
This is without even getting into whether Japan deserved it, which they most certainly did.
Japanese citizens =/= Japan. And, as I said in another comment, if the every day people of a country are to be held accountable for atrocities committed by their government, America - as well as most of the rest of the world - would be an irradiated wasteland.
As I also said in the other comment, the victors write history. The only reason we got away with that shit is because we won. If someone had done the same shit to us, it would be an atrocity the likes of which had never been seen. If we'd done it to Japan, but they'd still won...atrocity. If Germany had done it, but lost...atrocity. If Germany had done it but won...totally justified, they had to do it, it was for the greater good.
Again, you can say it's justified if you want, but it's still evil. And if anyone but the winners had done it, everyone would say it was evil. Very, very, very evil.
You can argue it was because they didn't have the technology, and that's true, but Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan never did anything on that scale. And, again, if they had...people would rightly call it absolute evil.
There were many military reasons to drop those two bombs, and going right to the morality of the decision is shallow and stupid.
No way. Humans have largely, and should strive to, hold themselves to higher standards than mere necessity. You can look at something, see it as militarily advantageous, and still ask if it's moral to do so? After the fact you can certainly criticize immoral decisions, too. Immoral is immoral.
I'm surprised that you're one of the only (few?) people in this thread making this point:
If Germany had done it but won...totally justified
As we saw with covid -- giving untested vaccines to 3yr olds -- 'ethics' mean absolutely nothing to the globalists.
Germany's an odd case -- they had developed Sarin, then the most potent nerve gas in history, but of course, being honourable, didn't use it on their enemies... This despite the countless lives it could have saved!!!
They also didn't use it during the holofrost for, you know, reasons.
It's also interesting because, on the flipside, Israel's main crime is mere recency. You can say their actions are evil or not. But their main optics issue is just that they're doing it now. If they'd done it one hundred years ago...ancient past, who cares?
To be clear, for the record, I condemn what Israel is doing. But it really is a matter of victors writing history, and we in the present living through history. What Israel is doing is totally barbaric. But we accept a lot of barbarism from those that won in the past. It's an interesting double standard, and an interesting thought experiment.
And, yeah, Germany is a bit of a weird juxtaposition. Germany certainly committed atrocities (everyone did), but it seems they could have done a lot worse, but held back. For whatever reasons. And, from everything I've heard, Hitler absolutely despised chemical weapons, having served in WW1. Some claim that's not true, and I certainly can't claim to know, but whether for tactical or moral reasons, it's a fact he didn't use them.
I'm not even picking sides here, but if the Axis had won, the Allies would have been villainized for numerous crimes they did commit, and numerous crimes they didn't, while the Axis's crimes would be swept under the rug. It's just how things work.
Using your own logic, and even using the official history of WW2, if targetting civilians is fine in war, how come the U.S. were the good guys in WW2, but Germans were the bad guys?
The germans started the war. Who swings first matters. They didn't have a justified provocation, they invaded poland to gain territory knowing it would kick off the second great war.
If you still think that, then you're ignorant to the censored history of WW2. I don't blame you, considering the amount of propaganda and censorship surrounding the subject.
In reality, the British started the war (and who were using the British; for reference, check out the Balfour Declaration). The British made a secret deal with Poland, that if Poland got into a war with Germany the British would ally with Poland (even if Poland started it), and wanted them to instigate/start a war with Germany, to crush the German people. This is why Britain declared war on Germany for invading, and not on Soviet Russia for doing the exact same thing and in the exact same month. Weird, right? This would also explain the deliberate targetting of German civilians before, during, and after the war. It would also explain why numerous attempts at peace talks, initiated by Germany, were denied (both during WW1 and WW2). This would also explain why Rudolf Hess, a high ranking Nazi party member, flew secretly to Britain to try to initiate peace talks, but instead was arrested, and kept in prison under trumped up charges until he committed suicide in 1987.
Have you not heard about the atrocities against the Germans living in the newly created Poland after WW1? It's certainly not taught in schools, and it's not shown in any mainstream media. It would run counter to all of the programming surrounding WW2, since it's paramount to present Nazi Germany as the ultimate bad guys, who deserved everything that happened to them, including civilians, including women, children, and eldery.
Keep in mind that most of those Germans had lived there (in Poland, and surrounding areas) for hundreds (or thousands of years). Look at maps of Prussia, the Teutonic Knights, and the general area the German people inhabited prior to WW1. After WW2, the expulsion of all the Germans east of the new borders led to one of the largest forced human migrations in history, killing millions of them. However, before the war started, the Polish killed tens of thousands of Germans, before Germany invaded. The Polish were subjugating the Germans in Poland, before Germany invaded. The Polish threatened to invade and attack Germany, multiple times, before Germany invaded. The Polish actively boasted about being able to defeat Germany by themselves, and gave out their invasion plans, openly, before Germany invaded. The Polish even made several small military attacks on German farms and military installations, in German territory, before Germany invaded. By even the weakest cucked standards of today, Germany had a right to invade. The war inflated, after Germany invaded Poland to protect it's own people, precisely because that was exactly what the British, "Western", and "Soviet" powers wanted.
Read these accounts of the crimes and sentiments by the Polish against the German people:
It wasn't just the nukes. We also fire bombed their cities too, at a time where most of their buildings were made with wood. The Nukes were the cherry on top of an already shit sundae. That's not even going over that in all likelyhood the US took deliberate actions pre-ward to instigate them into attacking us so we had an excuse to enter WWII.
Of course there were.
Mixed bag. We dropped the nukes to...drop the nukes. That was the whole point. And we did so with full knowledge that we were nuking civilians. Does the fact that there were also military targets make it any better? No.
Yeah, but if one side decides it's total war, that's still evil. You're welcome to argue it's a justified evil, but it's still intentional mass murder of civilians. You can't be the "good guys," demand the other side play by the rules, while breaking all those same rules and murdering a bunch of civilians.
Japanese citizens =/= Japan. And, as I said in another comment, if the every day people of a country are to be held accountable for atrocities committed by their government, America - as well as most of the rest of the world - would be an irradiated wasteland.
As I also said in the other comment, the victors write history. The only reason we got away with that shit is because we won. If someone had done the same shit to us, it would be an atrocity the likes of which had never been seen. If we'd done it to Japan, but they'd still won...atrocity. If Germany had done it, but lost...atrocity. If Germany had done it but won...totally justified, they had to do it, it was for the greater good.
Again, you can say it's justified if you want, but it's still evil. And if anyone but the winners had done it, everyone would say it was evil. Very, very, very evil.
You can argue it was because they didn't have the technology, and that's true, but Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan never did anything on that scale. And, again, if they had...people would rightly call it absolute evil.
No way. Humans have largely, and should strive to, hold themselves to higher standards than mere necessity. You can look at something, see it as militarily advantageous, and still ask if it's moral to do so? After the fact you can certainly criticize immoral decisions, too. Immoral is immoral.
I'm surprised that you're one of the only (few?) people in this thread making this point:
As we saw with covid -- giving untested vaccines to 3yr olds -- 'ethics' mean absolutely nothing to the globalists.
Germany's an odd case -- they had developed Sarin, then the most potent nerve gas in history, but of course, being honourable, didn't use it on their enemies... This despite the countless lives it could have saved!!!
They also didn't use it during the holofrost for, you know, reasons.
It's also interesting because, on the flipside, Israel's main crime is mere recency. You can say their actions are evil or not. But their main optics issue is just that they're doing it now. If they'd done it one hundred years ago...ancient past, who cares?
To be clear, for the record, I condemn what Israel is doing. But it really is a matter of victors writing history, and we in the present living through history. What Israel is doing is totally barbaric. But we accept a lot of barbarism from those that won in the past. It's an interesting double standard, and an interesting thought experiment.
And, yeah, Germany is a bit of a weird juxtaposition. Germany certainly committed atrocities (everyone did), but it seems they could have done a lot worse, but held back. For whatever reasons. And, from everything I've heard, Hitler absolutely despised chemical weapons, having served in WW1. Some claim that's not true, and I certainly can't claim to know, but whether for tactical or moral reasons, it's a fact he didn't use them.
I'm not even picking sides here, but if the Axis had won, the Allies would have been villainized for numerous crimes they did commit, and numerous crimes they didn't, while the Axis's crimes would be swept under the rug. It's just how things work.
Using your own logic, and even using the official history of WW2, if targetting civilians is fine in war, how come the U.S. were the good guys in WW2, but Germans were the bad guys?
The germans started the war. Who swings first matters. They didn't have a justified provocation, they invaded poland to gain territory knowing it would kick off the second great war.
If you still think that, then you're ignorant to the censored history of WW2. I don't blame you, considering the amount of propaganda and censorship surrounding the subject.
In reality, the British started the war (and who were using the British; for reference, check out the Balfour Declaration). The British made a secret deal with Poland, that if Poland got into a war with Germany the British would ally with Poland (even if Poland started it), and wanted them to instigate/start a war with Germany, to crush the German people. This is why Britain declared war on Germany for invading, and not on Soviet Russia for doing the exact same thing and in the exact same month. Weird, right? This would also explain the deliberate targetting of German civilians before, during, and after the war. It would also explain why numerous attempts at peace talks, initiated by Germany, were denied (both during WW1 and WW2). This would also explain why Rudolf Hess, a high ranking Nazi party member, flew secretly to Britain to try to initiate peace talks, but instead was arrested, and kept in prison under trumped up charges until he committed suicide in 1987.
Have you not heard about the atrocities against the Germans living in the newly created Poland after WW1? It's certainly not taught in schools, and it's not shown in any mainstream media. It would run counter to all of the programming surrounding WW2, since it's paramount to present Nazi Germany as the ultimate bad guys, who deserved everything that happened to them, including civilians, including women, children, and eldery.
Keep in mind that most of those Germans had lived there (in Poland, and surrounding areas) for hundreds (or thousands of years). Look at maps of Prussia, the Teutonic Knights, and the general area the German people inhabited prior to WW1. After WW2, the expulsion of all the Germans east of the new borders led to one of the largest forced human migrations in history, killing millions of them. However, before the war started, the Polish killed tens of thousands of Germans, before Germany invaded. The Polish were subjugating the Germans in Poland, before Germany invaded. The Polish threatened to invade and attack Germany, multiple times, before Germany invaded. The Polish actively boasted about being able to defeat Germany by themselves, and gave out their invasion plans, openly, before Germany invaded. The Polish even made several small military attacks on German farms and military installations, in German territory, before Germany invaded. By even the weakest cucked standards of today, Germany had a right to invade. The war inflated, after Germany invaded Poland to protect it's own people, precisely because that was exactly what the British, "Western", and "Soviet" powers wanted.
Read these accounts of the crimes and sentiments by the Polish against the German people:
https://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/wrsynopsis.html
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/NewPDFs/GERMANY/GER.Polish.Atrocities.Against.German.Minority.in.Poland.1940.pdf