Fundamentally, they don't really even believe in good characters, and don't think that it's realistic for a good character to succeed in a poisoned world.
I'd agree there. And, honestly, a good character doesn't even need to succeed - he just needs to keep trying. To me, a character standing up for what is right to the point of ridicule, imprisonment, death, or some other negative outcome is a lot more inspiring than Edgy Antihero #516 winning and/or receiving his comeuppance. Inspiring others to carry on the fight (like at the end of Serenity), making a bad guy actually reconsider things (like Vader did at the end of Return of the Jedi), or even just saving one or two people and letting hope carry on (Aragorn and Co at the Black Gate) can all be a win for the good guys. Sure, it's better when the good guy survives too (Luke did get off the Death Star, and Aragorn and Co [at least the named characters] survived the battle), but it's not always necessary.
I think a truly good character builds in a fallen world.
We either get the anti-hero types that are damaged by the world and try to make something nice happen.
Or we get the heroes who effectively have to destroy themselves to preserve some minor victory.
Or we see a miraculous victory against a horde of enemies, and everything goes back to the way it was, and the poisoned world is gone.
These are all, in and of themselves stories that are a bit cynical. Even the last one that just kind of gives up and says "then magic happened and they all lived happily ever after". But that's not what a good victory looks like in the face of darkness.
We almost never see the hero build a community, family, society, or friendship that forges a good world, and pushes the boundaries of evil back, slowly & steadily over time. We don't see a good world forged by the heroes good actions; only saved. And I think that's a huge problem for our time, because we live in a world so ravaged by degeneracy, cynicism, and nihilism, that most people don't have anything to save. Our hero's story has to be about how to build something to save first, and keep it preserved in the face of evil, because no one is going to just straight up defeat the evil; just repel it for a while longer.
It is honestly part of why I have been burned out on Antiheros these days and just want ultimate good characters and mustache twirling villain's. We have had so many cases of jaded, nihilistic antiheros that I can stand them anymore. Although I do still like some of the more classic examples such as Judge Dredd.
I'd agree there. And, honestly, a good character doesn't even need to succeed - he just needs to keep trying. To me, a character standing up for what is right to the point of ridicule, imprisonment, death, or some other negative outcome is a lot more inspiring than Edgy Antihero #516 winning and/or receiving his comeuppance. Inspiring others to carry on the fight (like at the end of Serenity), making a bad guy actually reconsider things (like Vader did at the end of Return of the Jedi), or even just saving one or two people and letting hope carry on (Aragorn and Co at the Black Gate) can all be a win for the good guys. Sure, it's better when the good guy survives too (Luke did get off the Death Star, and Aragorn and Co [at least the named characters] survived the battle), but it's not always necessary.
I think a truly good character builds in a fallen world.
We either get the anti-hero types that are damaged by the world and try to make something nice happen.
Or we get the heroes who effectively have to destroy themselves to preserve some minor victory.
Or we see a miraculous victory against a horde of enemies, and everything goes back to the way it was, and the poisoned world is gone.
These are all, in and of themselves stories that are a bit cynical. Even the last one that just kind of gives up and says "then magic happened and they all lived happily ever after". But that's not what a good victory looks like in the face of darkness.
We almost never see the hero build a community, family, society, or friendship that forges a good world, and pushes the boundaries of evil back, slowly & steadily over time. We don't see a good world forged by the heroes good actions; only saved. And I think that's a huge problem for our time, because we live in a world so ravaged by degeneracy, cynicism, and nihilism, that most people don't have anything to save. Our hero's story has to be about how to build something to save first, and keep it preserved in the face of evil, because no one is going to just straight up defeat the evil; just repel it for a while longer.
who dat
Try wheel of time if you like fantasy. It's quite long, but it has to be to do what you describe effectively, and it works well.
It is honestly part of why I have been burned out on Antiheros these days and just want ultimate good characters and mustache twirling villain's. We have had so many cases of jaded, nihilistic antiheros that I can stand them anymore. Although I do still like some of the more classic examples such as Judge Dredd.