But they may not accomplish much. They may entertain you, but when in response to a widely held view that is not exactly unreasonable, it's going to make the other guy think: what a nutcase. And dismiss whatever valid points you do have.
I'm aware of his perspective and values he's displayed, hence why I've accordingly referred to him as a lib.
I'll gladly defend the idea that you can be critical of wokeness, while also saying that this does not require you to side with China or Russia, without being a 'lib'. Whatever that is defined as.
I don't think a person can convince others through arguments about something 99 out of 100 times, when they are going against lifelong propaganda + social osmosis that reinforces it.
Well, you're talking to someone who has been able to part from that at least on the issue of wokeness. So at the very least, he is open-minded.
His whining re: Russia/China, his invocation of lib memes (gulags, you can basically guess in which circles he runs from it), and his invocation of muh freedom which is a staple of liberalism, along with previous comments I've come across/seen him comment in threads I've made, signify as much and there's basically next to zero doubt that he isn't a lib.
As opposed to what? A fascist?
People who value lib ideals/values that have been around more or less since liberalism spawned, such as freedom, individualism, equality (not always necessary), democracy, rights, free press, freedom of speech, capitalism, its heresies (-isms), etc.
Nearly all fictions, of course, unless you actually believe that Western countries provide 'democracy' or 'freedom of speech'.
The second use of liberalism which is also correct here, is those who support, enable, or defend the ruling class, their interests, goals, etc, regardless of what they larp as; if someone spends their time promoting ruling narratives, villains, and heresies, they can call themselves whatever they want and claim to posses whatever values they want, as the role they embody in relation to power is that of a liberal.
Some ruling class enemies and heresies may actually be bad, and one might opposes them for reasons other than this being the will of the ruling class.
Not really, no. Especially when the person is from US, where many people grew up with old school liberalism which has been, previously, imposed onto people just like rad lib ideology is.
Yes, I live in Europe, so pretty much the same. But given the fact that wokeness is now pushed and imposed, you can't say that anyone who adheres to liberalism as it used to be is a 'shitlib'.
Though I appreciate the use of that term. It was hilarious to me when I first saw GG use that term.
As opposed to illiberalism. I don't think fascists/communists/etc are a thing, something that the second use of liberalism as I've described it indicates. Not beyond the role those villains embody in relation to power.
But what is illiberalism? Does it describe a specific thing, or rather a whole range of things that are not liberalism?
People still believe in them.
Yes, but surely you don't, and it sounded like you did.
I believe in them in that they would be good things. It's just that we don't have them.
Marxists are a good example; meme villains, few of them exist, but the ones that do are fairly decent and illiberal.
Don't let other people on this sub hear you say that. I'm the only one here who might agree with you based on my own personal experience, and that's because I'm from the Middle East and it's not as passe there as here.
But they may not accomplish much. They may entertain you, but when in response to a widely held view that is not exactly unreasonable, it's going to make the other guy think: what a nutcase. And dismiss whatever valid points you do have.
I'll gladly defend the idea that you can be critical of wokeness, while also saying that this does not require you to side with China or Russia, without being a 'lib'. Whatever that is defined as.
Well, you're talking to someone who has been able to part from that at least on the issue of wokeness. So at the very least, he is open-minded.
As opposed to what? A fascist?
Nearly all fictions, of course, unless you actually believe that Western countries provide 'democracy' or 'freedom of speech'.
Some ruling class enemies and heresies may actually be bad, and one might opposes them for reasons other than this being the will of the ruling class.
Yes, I live in Europe, so pretty much the same. But given the fact that wokeness is now pushed and imposed, you can't say that anyone who adheres to liberalism as it used to be is a 'shitlib'.
Though I appreciate the use of that term. It was hilarious to me when I first saw GG use that term.
But what is illiberalism? Does it describe a specific thing, or rather a whole range of things that are not liberalism?
Yes, but surely you don't, and it sounded like you did.
I believe in them in that they would be good things. It's just that we don't have them.
Don't let other people on this sub hear you say that. I'm the only one here who might agree with you based on my own personal experience, and that's because I'm from the Middle East and it's not as passe there as here.