it's not an extreme example (E.G., that professor committing suicide, etc).
I'm glad he is not forgotten.
As I've said elsewhere, the point of saying someone is a lib isn't to insult them, but to identify them (their beliefs/role) regardless of what they larp as. With that said, insults are good. I find them enjoyable, albeit not the most basic ones. I find Augustus's approach good,:
I don't think so. The guy you're talking to is clearly not a bad guy. He just disagrees with you on some points. And they are fair points! You may think that the regime is worse than Russia or China, but you should demonstrate this with argument rather than with name-calling that is similar to the leftist "RACIST!"
I can't sympathize with people who buy into the most vile propaganda re: few countries that actually aren't absorbed, especially as they are about the only ones currently who can pose a challenge to achieve, if nothing else, a multipolar world.
And this is a good argument.
Make that instead of the name-calling. A multipolar world is good.
If someone witnesses same propaganda being used country after country to justify some of the worst policies of the degenerate empire, and keeps buying into it, they are ngmi. That's my genuine belief, and at that point I can ignore them completely or treat them accordingly. I often opt for former.
I think you underestimate how easy it is to not fall victim to propaganda. From OP's perspective, as flawed as Western countries are, at least they are not as corrupt as Russia, they allow some limited measure of free speech, and the lives of ordinary citizens are better in Russia and have more freedom than in China.
That is not exactly a supremely unreasonable view.
But they may not accomplish much. They may entertain you, but when in response to a widely held view that is not exactly unreasonable, it's going to make the other guy think: what a nutcase. And dismiss whatever valid points you do have.
I'm aware of his perspective and values he's displayed, hence why I've accordingly referred to him as a lib.
I'll gladly defend the idea that you can be critical of wokeness, while also saying that this does not require you to side with China or Russia, without being a 'lib'. Whatever that is defined as.
I don't think a person can convince others through arguments about something 99 out of 100 times, when they are going against lifelong propaganda + social osmosis that reinforces it.
Well, you're talking to someone who has been able to part from that at least on the issue of wokeness. So at the very least, he is open-minded.
His whining re: Russia/China, his invocation of lib memes (gulags, you can basically guess in which circles he runs from it), and his invocation of muh freedom which is a staple of liberalism, along with previous comments I've come across/seen him comment in threads I've made, signify as much and there's basically next to zero doubt that he isn't a lib.
As opposed to what? A fascist?
People who value lib ideals/values that have been around more or less since liberalism spawned, such as freedom, individualism, equality (not always necessary), democracy, rights, free press, freedom of speech, capitalism, its heresies (-isms), etc.
Nearly all fictions, of course, unless you actually believe that Western countries provide 'democracy' or 'freedom of speech'.
The second use of liberalism which is also correct here, is those who support, enable, or defend the ruling class, their interests, goals, etc, regardless of what they larp as; if someone spends their time promoting ruling narratives, villains, and heresies, they can call themselves whatever they want and claim to posses whatever values they want, as the role they embody in relation to power is that of a liberal.
Some ruling class enemies and heresies may actually be bad, and one might opposes them for reasons other than this being the will of the ruling class.
I'm glad he is not forgotten.
I don't think so. The guy you're talking to is clearly not a bad guy. He just disagrees with you on some points. And they are fair points! You may think that the regime is worse than Russia or China, but you should demonstrate this with argument rather than with name-calling that is similar to the leftist "RACIST!"
And this is a good argument.
Make that instead of the name-calling. A multipolar world is good.
I think you underestimate how easy it is to not fall victim to propaganda. From OP's perspective, as flawed as Western countries are, at least they are not as corrupt as Russia, they allow some limited measure of free speech, and the lives of ordinary citizens are better in Russia and have more freedom than in China.
That is not exactly a supremely unreasonable view.
But they may not accomplish much. They may entertain you, but when in response to a widely held view that is not exactly unreasonable, it's going to make the other guy think: what a nutcase. And dismiss whatever valid points you do have.
I'll gladly defend the idea that you can be critical of wokeness, while also saying that this does not require you to side with China or Russia, without being a 'lib'. Whatever that is defined as.
Well, you're talking to someone who has been able to part from that at least on the issue of wokeness. So at the very least, he is open-minded.
As opposed to what? A fascist?
Nearly all fictions, of course, unless you actually believe that Western countries provide 'democracy' or 'freedom of speech'.
Some ruling class enemies and heresies may actually be bad, and one might opposes them for reasons other than this being the will of the ruling class.