I only see people attributring deaths to the vaccine without even knowing if the person in question had taken it.
Yup, sometimes that's certainly the case. Here's the thing though, this is the absolute wrong thread to make that argument, since there are no specific people in question; no one is making the argument here that X person or Y public figure died from the vaccine. Deaths are up overall...and - according to official numbers, whatever those are worth - 97.4% of Australians (16+) had at least one dose, 96% had two doses, even 72.4% had three doses.
So, statistically, almost all of these people dying are vaccinated. So even if someone in this thread did pick at one random dead Aussie and say "this dude here that died suddenly was vaccinated"...they'd almost certainly be correct.
So, yeah, the people dying are vaccinated. Causation, correlation, whatever, that can all be argued. But they are vaccinated.
Deaths are up overall...and - according to official numbers, whatever those are worth - 97.4% of Australians (16+) had at least one dose, 96% had two doses, even 72.4% had three doses.
Those are crazy percentages. Honestly, had to double-check, because that is abnormally high. Australia is kookystan.
So, yeah, the people dying are vaccinated. Causation, correlation, whatever, that can all be argued. But they are vaccinated.
Most likely, but only in this case. My point is that people generally do not care to discover whether or not it was actually their pet political issue that led to this, even in other instances. You saw it today when they tried to claim that the Diamond lady died because of the vaccine, when evidence from their Twitter account shows that she almost certainly was not.
And yes, that they blame it on 'climate change' makes me think it's more likely that they are hiding something. Not necessarily the vaccines, as the media was also strongly in favor of the lockdowns. So it has to be something that they're against. The fact that all the people who argued that lockdowns are bad for people's health, now claim that any heart failure cannot have anything to do with them, also makes me suspicious of them.
We live in an Empire of Lies. I have no way of verifying anything that people say. Just because the media propagates lies, does not mean that the anti-media people necessarily tell the truth, or that they even have the competence to distinguish truth from falsehood. And I'd rather say "I don't know" than claim stuff that may well prove false.
No, overall. I'm not saying people don't jump to conclusions, but often times the people dropping dead are in some of the most highly vaxxed/mandated segments of the population so, again, it's often a fair assumption to link the death and the - even if assumed - vaccine. Maybe don't make definitive statements, sure, but I think it's more than fair to theorize, even if you don't know the person's vax status for sure.
And yes, that they blame it on 'climate change' makes me think it's more likely that they are hiding something. Not necessarily the vaccines, as the media was also strongly in favor of the lockdowns.
Yes, they're definitely lying about something. I'd also argue it's incredibly suspicious that "unknown" cause of death is rapidly increasing, and no one is talking about it. That seems a huge fucking omission from the media, and there's got to be a reason.
The fact that all the people who argued that lockdowns are bad for people's health, now claim that any heart failure cannot have anything to do with them, also makes me suspicious of them.
I've seen this argument so much. I never saw anyone claiming young people would be dying of heart attacks due to the lockdowns. I certainly never claimed that. I did see claims we'd start seeing an increase in heart deaths among young people due to the vaccine, though. You're doing the same conflating of age ranges that contributed to screwy covid numbers. Now, are some of these heart attacks from lockdown? Absolutely. Are some from the vaccine? Absolutely. And probably almost all of the heart attacks in the young are vaccine-related. Not all, but most.
We live in an Empire of Lies. I have no way of verifying anything that people say. Just because the media propagates lies, does not mean that the anti-media people necessarily tell the truth, or that they even have the competence to distinguish truth from falsehood. And I'd rather say "I don't know" than claim stuff that may well prove false.
I get that. But you don't seem to be saying "I don't know," you're still believing claims that weren't even the initial claims. We've already stumbled down so many steps from "prevents transmission," that it's laughable.
Yes, they're definitely lying about something. I'd also argue it's incredibly suspicious that "unknown" cause of death is rapidly increasing, and no one is talking about it. That seems a huge fucking omission from the media, and there's got to be a reason.
How much though? There is good reason to be suspicious, as people who argued for course X, are not going to be very happy to admit that course X resulted in this or that bad consequence. Even if, hypothetically, it did a lot more good than harm.
I've seen this argument so much
That's a shame. I thought I was the first (no joke). Because the pro-vaccine crowd was also pro-lockdown, so they wouldn't want to blame it on the lockdown. And the anti-vaccine crowd hates vaccines more than it hates lockdowns, so it's not going to argue that either.
I did see claims we'd start seeing an increase in heart deaths among young people due to the vaccine,
Well, it causes myocarditis. If you asked me, I'd tell you the same, though I have no idea if it is related. And if you need to have had myocarditis in order to have a heart attack due to the vaccine. As far as I know, it is not a condition that you simply shrug off, so did all these folks get myocarditis and then have treatment for it? We don't and won't know.
Now, are some of these heart attacks from lockdown? Absolutely. Are some from the vaccine? Absolutely. And probably almost all of the heart attacks in the young are vaccine-related. Not all, but most.
It's certainly possible, at least for any increase. I'm not sure we're ever going to get a reliable answer on that. Like I said, if it's false and they deny it, I won't believe them, and if it's true, they probably won't admit it and it's going to be either trusting random blog posts or saying "I don't know".
So... I don't know. We probably will never know.
But you don't seem to be saying "I don't know," you're still believing claims that weren't even the initial claims.
Why would it need to be an initial claim? Obviously, if you claim that it fully stops transmission, hospitalization and death is immaterial. I believe it, because I've reviewed the evidence that strongly seemed to indicate this when last I cared about that.
This is not to excuse any shenanigans. And full disclosure: I did support lockdowns in the beginning, while I never said that younger, healthy people should take the vaccine. So I'm basically blaming myself, or at least holding out the possibility.
BTW, it's cool that you can have such a civil conversation in good faith, even though you believe that I'm in favor of some pretty bad stuff.
BTW, it's cool that you can have such a civil conversation in good faith, even though you believe that I'm in favor of some pretty bad stuff.
Thanks, and I always try. Also, I never said you're in favor of bad stuff, at worst I think you have your set opinions that lead you to be blind to the other side, but you can say that about most people, including me. I certainly don't think you're evil, though. I think you may have bought into some propaganda, perhaps, but that's about the extent.
Yup, sometimes that's certainly the case. Here's the thing though, this is the absolute wrong thread to make that argument, since there are no specific people in question; no one is making the argument here that X person or Y public figure died from the vaccine. Deaths are up overall...and - according to official numbers, whatever those are worth - 97.4% of Australians (16+) had at least one dose, 96% had two doses, even 72.4% had three doses.
So, statistically, almost all of these people dying are vaccinated. So even if someone in this thread did pick at one random dead Aussie and say "this dude here that died suddenly was vaccinated"...they'd almost certainly be correct.
So, yeah, the people dying are vaccinated. Causation, correlation, whatever, that can all be argued. But they are vaccinated.
Those are crazy percentages. Honestly, had to double-check, because that is abnormally high. Australia is kookystan.
Most likely, but only in this case. My point is that people generally do not care to discover whether or not it was actually their pet political issue that led to this, even in other instances. You saw it today when they tried to claim that the Diamond lady died because of the vaccine, when evidence from their Twitter account shows that she almost certainly was not.
And yes, that they blame it on 'climate change' makes me think it's more likely that they are hiding something. Not necessarily the vaccines, as the media was also strongly in favor of the lockdowns. So it has to be something that they're against. The fact that all the people who argued that lockdowns are bad for people's health, now claim that any heart failure cannot have anything to do with them, also makes me suspicious of them.
We live in an Empire of Lies. I have no way of verifying anything that people say. Just because the media propagates lies, does not mean that the anti-media people necessarily tell the truth, or that they even have the competence to distinguish truth from falsehood. And I'd rather say "I don't know" than claim stuff that may well prove false.
No, overall. I'm not saying people don't jump to conclusions, but often times the people dropping dead are in some of the most highly vaxxed/mandated segments of the population so, again, it's often a fair assumption to link the death and the - even if assumed - vaccine. Maybe don't make definitive statements, sure, but I think it's more than fair to theorize, even if you don't know the person's vax status for sure.
Yes, they're definitely lying about something. I'd also argue it's incredibly suspicious that "unknown" cause of death is rapidly increasing, and no one is talking about it. That seems a huge fucking omission from the media, and there's got to be a reason.
I've seen this argument so much. I never saw anyone claiming young people would be dying of heart attacks due to the lockdowns. I certainly never claimed that. I did see claims we'd start seeing an increase in heart deaths among young people due to the vaccine, though. You're doing the same conflating of age ranges that contributed to screwy covid numbers. Now, are some of these heart attacks from lockdown? Absolutely. Are some from the vaccine? Absolutely. And probably almost all of the heart attacks in the young are vaccine-related. Not all, but most.
I get that. But you don't seem to be saying "I don't know," you're still believing claims that weren't even the initial claims. We've already stumbled down so many steps from "prevents transmission," that it's laughable.
How much though? There is good reason to be suspicious, as people who argued for course X, are not going to be very happy to admit that course X resulted in this or that bad consequence. Even if, hypothetically, it did a lot more good than harm.
That's a shame. I thought I was the first (no joke). Because the pro-vaccine crowd was also pro-lockdown, so they wouldn't want to blame it on the lockdown. And the anti-vaccine crowd hates vaccines more than it hates lockdowns, so it's not going to argue that either.
Well, it causes myocarditis. If you asked me, I'd tell you the same, though I have no idea if it is related. And if you need to have had myocarditis in order to have a heart attack due to the vaccine. As far as I know, it is not a condition that you simply shrug off, so did all these folks get myocarditis and then have treatment for it? We don't and won't know.
And I know that this is regarded as a cop-out, but there is also strong evidence that the virus can cause heart issues. In fact, some pro-vaccine have falsely claimed that this is categorically more likely than from the vaccine.
It's certainly possible, at least for any increase. I'm not sure we're ever going to get a reliable answer on that. Like I said, if it's false and they deny it, I won't believe them, and if it's true, they probably won't admit it and it's going to be either trusting random blog posts or saying "I don't know".
So... I don't know. We probably will never know.
Why would it need to be an initial claim? Obviously, if you claim that it fully stops transmission, hospitalization and death is immaterial. I believe it, because I've reviewed the evidence that strongly seemed to indicate this when last I cared about that.
This is not to excuse any shenanigans. And full disclosure: I did support lockdowns in the beginning, while I never said that younger, healthy people should take the vaccine. So I'm basically blaming myself, or at least holding out the possibility.
BTW, it's cool that you can have such a civil conversation in good faith, even though you believe that I'm in favor of some pretty bad stuff.
Thanks, and I always try. Also, I never said you're in favor of bad stuff, at worst I think you have your set opinions that lead you to be blind to the other side, but you can say that about most people, including me. I certainly don't think you're evil, though. I think you may have bought into some propaganda, perhaps, but that's about the extent.