So here's what I don't get: your obsession with trying to justify your own decision. Suppose that all these heart attacks are the result of taking the vaccine. You didn't, so why are you so concerned about it?
...
Seriously?
You're not fighting and dying in Ukraine, why should you care? Inflation isn't literally killing you, why should you care? You weren't geocided in [choose your genocide], what's the issue? You're not being sent to the camps, why should you care? You're not Canadian, why should you care what's happening there? Your children weren't groomed, why do you care?
A great evil has been done, but doesn't directly affect you (even if you have family and friends it does affect)...why are you so obsessed with talking about it?
You're a smart guy on many things...but this was an absolute brainlet take. Like (hopefully) peak brainlet.
You're not fighting and dying in Ukraine, why should you care?
Same reason I care about US politics: because it does affect me. Inflation is wrecking everyone's life, billions of our money are sent to a corrupt puppet non-country, and we live once again in the shadow of nuclear war.
A great evil has been done, but doesn't directly affect you (even if you have family and friends it does affect)...why are you so obsessed with talking about it?
There is no evidence of a 'great evil'. I suspect that people who do try to portray it as such are interested in self-justification. It's as if they're always talking to some leftist berating them for not taking the vaccine. But here's the thing. There is nothing to justify. Just say "Didn't want it."
Insofar as there was great evil, that was the attempt to force vaccines on people. That would be true even if the vaccines had no side-effects and only had benefits.
Same reason I care about US politics: because it does affect me.
And I have friends, family, neighbors, and the like who were forced to take something that now means they're more at risk for death; that does affect me. But even if it wasn't so direct, different death trends in humans affects everyone.
I suspect that people who do try to portray it as such are interested in self-justification.
I don't need to justify shit. I was wright about everything, and the people who were wrong about everything are in their own reality; they're either realize or they won't, but I don't feel I can do much to convince them, even if I wanted to. I don't need to justify anything; I'm very happy with my decision, and I don't regret it for a microsecond.
There is nothing to justify. Just say "Didn't want it."
Exactly. So why are you saying I'm justifying things by simply discussing them? I voice my opinions on lots of issues, am I justifying whatever topic we happen to be talking about, when I simply say what I think? I don't really get the argument. I've never been defensive or felt the need to justify my position on the vaccines and the mandates.
And I have friends, family, neighbors, and the like who were forced to take something that now means they're more at risk for death; that does affect me. But even if it wasn't so direct, different death trends in humans affects everyone.
I'd argue that the problem is the 'force' element. Like I said: that would be as valid even if you thought it was good for them. I would not accept others imposing their will on me even if it were something that was 'good' for me, even by my own standards.
I don't need to justify shit. I was wright about everything, and the people who were wrong about everything are in their own reality; they're either realize or they won't, but I don't feel I can do much to convince them, even if I wanted to. I don't need to justify anything; I'm very happy with my decision, and I don't regret it for a microsecond.
A lot of people sound otherwise. A lot of comments they post sound like it's a direct reply to someone saying "YOU STILL HAVEN'T TAKEN THE VACCINE? YOU'RE KILLING GRANDMA!"
I don't really get the argument. I've never been defensive or felt the need to justify my position on the vaccines and the mandates.
Nor did I mean you. You are actually one of the few here who seems capable of logical discussion of the matter, rather than just insult. There is a certain strand though that's completely batty. A while back someone posting a Twitter screenshot of someone clearly opposed to the vaccine, who said not to insult people who, in her view, made the "wrong decision". There was a genius here who said "SHUT UP YOU MURDERING CLOTBLOODED SCUM". With such people, any sort of intelligent discussion is impossible, and honestly, the average pro-vaccine I've had discussion with was more reasonable.
Now let's discuss the substance. You say that it is a 'great evil'. If you mean the mandates, I do agree. Not so much the vaccine itself. How bad, in your view, does the cost/benefit have to be in order to qualify as a 'great evil'? Suppose as a pure hypothetical that tens of thousands of people died from the vaccine, for which I've seen no evidence, and also that it saved tens of millions of people. That clearly has a positive cost/benefit ratio. Insofar as a great evil was committed, it would be the hiding of differential cost/benefit by age, and not the vaccine itself. Maybe approximately the same number of people could have been saved, with say 10,000 fewer deaths, if people who are in little to no need of the vaccine had been properly informed of the matter, rather than being pressured even without being forced.
Now let's say that the vaccine, on average, has a neutral cost/benefit. Here again, the problem would be the same, namely that those who have little to no need for it were pressured to take it, instead of being properly informed. The cost/benefit would probably be positive in this scenario if it were otherwise.
My point is not to smuggle in some assumptions about actual costs and benefits. Just to probe what specifically it is that makes you view it as a 'great evil'. Regarding any mandate, we agree.
And I have friends, family, neighbors, and the like who were forced to take something that now means they're more at risk for death...
I'd argue that the problem is the 'force' element.
And I'd argue the problem is that people I care about are more likely to keel over and die...
A lot of people sound otherwise. A lot of comments they post sound like it's a direct reply to someone saying "YOU STILL HAVEN'T TAKEN THE VACCINE? YOU'RE KILLING GRANDMA!"
Some people say...
Nor did I mean you. You are actually one of the few here who seems capable of logical discussion of the matter, rather than just insult.
Well, thanks, but that's also been your fallback before, as well as other people who argue like that. Assert one thing, then when you get pushback say "well, no, not you, you're one of the good ones."
For example, yes, you did tell me I sounded like I was justifying. Then when I said I wasn't, you said you didn't mean me. A story old as time.
A while back someone posting a Twitter screenshot of someone clearly opposed to the vaccine, who said not to insult people who, in her view, made the "wrong decision". There was a genius here who said "SHUT UP YOU MURDERING CLOTBLOODED SCUM".
Yup, on that we can agree. I remember that thread, and I was there defending the Tweeter, at least on the vaccine issue. I still thought she was retarded in her demands on language, but, yeah, she wasn't "pro-vax," and a bunch of people - both here and on Twitter - completely fucking missed the mark on that one, and were just lashing out.
If you mean the mandates, I do agree. Not so much the vaccine itself. How bad, in your view, does the cost/benefit have to be in order to qualify as a 'great evil'?
We do agree the mandates are evil, yes. As to how bad the cost/benefit has to be...not very bad at all. And before you scream 'gotcha,' hear me out. Even if the vaccine mostly worked, and was mostly safe (which I argue it doesn't and isn't, but I know we won't agree there), I think the gaslighting, changing of terms and definitions, and general obfuscation of the science is in itself evil. Ironically enough, "mis- and disinformation." Even if the vaccine worked hundreds of times better than I believe it does, and was hundreds of times safer than I believe it is...it would still be a massive departure from past precedent when it comes to vaccine rollouts. They've bulled vaccines for much, much, much, much, much less, when it comes to safety concerns. A few adverse reactions, not even death, used to be enough for the powers that be to go 'whoa, let's slow this shit down, recall it and rework it.'
You objected to the other guy's use of 'poison,' and I agree it's a strong one. But in context of the history of modern vaccines, it absolutely is poison. It never should have been released into the population, much less mandated. But we're leaving the mandate discussion out of it, since we agree. But, yeah, even I'm wrong and the vaccine works much better than I though, I still think it's evil to put it out there, since even based on their own studies it's both historically unsafe and historically ineffective. They, at best, wanted a quick buck. At worst, something far more sinister.
Suppose as a pure hypothetical that tens of thousands of people died from the vaccine, for which I've seen no evidence, and also that it saved tens of millions of people. That clearly has a positive cost/benefit ratio.
Again, historically speaking, that doesn't belong out there. Especially because, in this hypothetical, that's still only a year or two out...we don't know the long term effects. If it's killing people so quickly, it could also be killing people slowly, or otherwise damaging them; infertility, lowered immune responses to other things, etc.
No matter how many people it saves (unless humanity would literally die out without it or something crazy like that), a vaccine that so quickly kills tens of thousands of people (your hypothetical) should not be released. It's not safe, it's not ready. Especially if told it's safe and effective, it has no side effects, and it stops both transmission and illness.
Insofar as a great evil was committed, it would be the hiding of differential cost/benefit by age, and not the vaccine itself. Maybe approximately the same number of people could have been saved, with say 10,000 fewer deaths, if people who are in little to no need of the vaccine had been properly informed of the matter, rather than being pressured even without being forced.
Yup, I agree that's certainly an issue too, but I do think the vaccine itself is greatly flawed to begin with.
My point is not to smuggle in some assumptions about actual costs and benefits. Just to probe what specifically it is that makes you view it as a 'great evil'.
We agree that the lying is a big part. But I don't believe the vaccine was ready to be released at all, even if they'd been more honest about it.
...
Seriously?
You're not fighting and dying in Ukraine, why should you care? Inflation isn't literally killing you, why should you care? You weren't geocided in [choose your genocide], what's the issue? You're not being sent to the camps, why should you care? You're not Canadian, why should you care what's happening there? Your children weren't groomed, why do you care?
A great evil has been done, but doesn't directly affect you (even if you have family and friends it does affect)...why are you so obsessed with talking about it?
You're a smart guy on many things...but this was an absolute brainlet take. Like (hopefully) peak brainlet.
"You didn't take the jab, so why do you care?"
I mean Tony is a leftist, of course he's a brainlet when it comes to the left's most sacred and holy belief, Safe and Effective.
he's obviously FITH
Same reason I care about US politics: because it does affect me. Inflation is wrecking everyone's life, billions of our money are sent to a corrupt puppet non-country, and we live once again in the shadow of nuclear war.
There is no evidence of a 'great evil'. I suspect that people who do try to portray it as such are interested in self-justification. It's as if they're always talking to some leftist berating them for not taking the vaccine. But here's the thing. There is nothing to justify. Just say "Didn't want it."
Insofar as there was great evil, that was the attempt to force vaccines on people. That would be true even if the vaccines had no side-effects and only had benefits.
And I have friends, family, neighbors, and the like who were forced to take something that now means they're more at risk for death; that does affect me. But even if it wasn't so direct, different death trends in humans affects everyone.
I don't need to justify shit. I was wright about everything, and the people who were wrong about everything are in their own reality; they're either realize or they won't, but I don't feel I can do much to convince them, even if I wanted to. I don't need to justify anything; I'm very happy with my decision, and I don't regret it for a microsecond.
Exactly. So why are you saying I'm justifying things by simply discussing them? I voice my opinions on lots of issues, am I justifying whatever topic we happen to be talking about, when I simply say what I think? I don't really get the argument. I've never been defensive or felt the need to justify my position on the vaccines and the mandates.
I'd argue that the problem is the 'force' element. Like I said: that would be as valid even if you thought it was good for them. I would not accept others imposing their will on me even if it were something that was 'good' for me, even by my own standards.
A lot of people sound otherwise. A lot of comments they post sound like it's a direct reply to someone saying "YOU STILL HAVEN'T TAKEN THE VACCINE? YOU'RE KILLING GRANDMA!"
Nor did I mean you. You are actually one of the few here who seems capable of logical discussion of the matter, rather than just insult. There is a certain strand though that's completely batty. A while back someone posting a Twitter screenshot of someone clearly opposed to the vaccine, who said not to insult people who, in her view, made the "wrong decision". There was a genius here who said "SHUT UP YOU MURDERING CLOTBLOODED SCUM". With such people, any sort of intelligent discussion is impossible, and honestly, the average pro-vaccine I've had discussion with was more reasonable.
Now let's discuss the substance. You say that it is a 'great evil'. If you mean the mandates, I do agree. Not so much the vaccine itself. How bad, in your view, does the cost/benefit have to be in order to qualify as a 'great evil'? Suppose as a pure hypothetical that tens of thousands of people died from the vaccine, for which I've seen no evidence, and also that it saved tens of millions of people. That clearly has a positive cost/benefit ratio. Insofar as a great evil was committed, it would be the hiding of differential cost/benefit by age, and not the vaccine itself. Maybe approximately the same number of people could have been saved, with say 10,000 fewer deaths, if people who are in little to no need of the vaccine had been properly informed of the matter, rather than being pressured even without being forced.
Now let's say that the vaccine, on average, has a neutral cost/benefit. Here again, the problem would be the same, namely that those who have little to no need for it were pressured to take it, instead of being properly informed. The cost/benefit would probably be positive in this scenario if it were otherwise.
My point is not to smuggle in some assumptions about actual costs and benefits. Just to probe what specifically it is that makes you view it as a 'great evil'. Regarding any mandate, we agree.
And I'd argue the problem is that people I care about are more likely to keel over and die...
Some people say...
Well, thanks, but that's also been your fallback before, as well as other people who argue like that. Assert one thing, then when you get pushback say "well, no, not you, you're one of the good ones."
For example, yes, you did tell me I sounded like I was justifying. Then when I said I wasn't, you said you didn't mean me. A story old as time.
Yup, on that we can agree. I remember that thread, and I was there defending the Tweeter, at least on the vaccine issue. I still thought she was retarded in her demands on language, but, yeah, she wasn't "pro-vax," and a bunch of people - both here and on Twitter - completely fucking missed the mark on that one, and were just lashing out.
We do agree the mandates are evil, yes. As to how bad the cost/benefit has to be...not very bad at all. And before you scream 'gotcha,' hear me out. Even if the vaccine mostly worked, and was mostly safe (which I argue it doesn't and isn't, but I know we won't agree there), I think the gaslighting, changing of terms and definitions, and general obfuscation of the science is in itself evil. Ironically enough, "mis- and disinformation." Even if the vaccine worked hundreds of times better than I believe it does, and was hundreds of times safer than I believe it is...it would still be a massive departure from past precedent when it comes to vaccine rollouts. They've bulled vaccines for much, much, much, much, much less, when it comes to safety concerns. A few adverse reactions, not even death, used to be enough for the powers that be to go 'whoa, let's slow this shit down, recall it and rework it.'
You objected to the other guy's use of 'poison,' and I agree it's a strong one. But in context of the history of modern vaccines, it absolutely is poison. It never should have been released into the population, much less mandated. But we're leaving the mandate discussion out of it, since we agree. But, yeah, even I'm wrong and the vaccine works much better than I though, I still think it's evil to put it out there, since even based on their own studies it's both historically unsafe and historically ineffective. They, at best, wanted a quick buck. At worst, something far more sinister.
Again, historically speaking, that doesn't belong out there. Especially because, in this hypothetical, that's still only a year or two out...we don't know the long term effects. If it's killing people so quickly, it could also be killing people slowly, or otherwise damaging them; infertility, lowered immune responses to other things, etc.
No matter how many people it saves (unless humanity would literally die out without it or something crazy like that), a vaccine that so quickly kills tens of thousands of people (your hypothetical) should not be released. It's not safe, it's not ready. Especially if told it's safe and effective, it has no side effects, and it stops both transmission and illness.
Yup, I agree that's certainly an issue too, but I do think the vaccine itself is greatly flawed to begin with.
We agree that the lying is a big part. But I don't believe the vaccine was ready to be released at all, even if they'd been more honest about it.