Is it legitimate or not to try to sabotage a country's exports to attempt to cripple the state? Seems to me that it is a legitimate war aim, regardless of its effects on third parties.
Americans can tell anyone not to buy the STOLEN food, they don't enforce it.
So they're telling Africans to starve for its empire, like I said. And no enforcement? Not militarily perhaps, but they have a lot of levers with which to punish countries, which is why nearly all the world does what it demands.
They're not like the police who will raid you if you conciously buy from someone you know was stolen from someone who murdered and robbed his neighbour. (And you think it's now just the robber's property. Because you do, calling it "Russian".)
I mean, Ukraine was ruled from Moscow, and if Ukraine has the right to reconquer the Donbas, then Russia has every right to reconquer Ukraine. Regarding theft, no, that's what the Americans do to the central bank reserves of Russia and Afghanistan.
I fucking told you the Americans tried to make them take Yanuk's own compromise offer AND FAILED BECAUSE THE UKRAINIAN OPPOSITION DIDN'T LISTEN TO THEM. Is it in large enough letters for you to finally comprehend?
Even if everything that you say is correct, and it may be, America and the EU still bear absolute responsibility for the coup. They were inciting against the government for months, after all - because that corrupt bastard was not their puppet.
They were dismantling the old Soviet labs, just like they dismantled/blown up/transferred to Russia (with Americans paying for it) all of nuclear weapons and anything related to them earlier in the decades long process of the American disarmament of Ukraine.
Yes, that is the standard defense. So why are they so terrified of Russia getting its hands on these labs? Why was Bush happy that 'Zelensky' prevented the Russians from getting their hands on it? I'm sure the Russians have more biological weapons than any country in the world.
Because the Americans believed Russia can be a friend and a partner
Yes, they thought Russia could be a 'democracy' - which they define as their puppet. Turns out, Putin is not their puppet. They got mad and started a new Cold War.
At the cost of millions dead in many neutral countries? Whenever it happened in history?
Shut the fuck up about "empire", seriously..I can't fucking hear it, it's so fucking dumb. Americans are already feeding the world in absolutely massive humanitarian efforts for decades, since WWII and its aftermath (Berlin Airlift included). US Aid, most of UN efforts. Feed even nominally enemy populations like the food airdrops in Afghanistan 2001. America feeds the Palestinians (including Palestinian "refugees"), who hate America.
It's the Russian leverage now, and the leverage is they suddenly disrupted and now control most of the regular food supply to the already hungry nations in the globalized world. They used to say a war between 2 countries with McDonalds can't happen, obviously couldn't even imagine something like that happening but here we go. Unimaginable, now happening.
Ukraine was not allowed to reconquer Donbas in 2014, halted by the Russian regular incusion in August. The world de facto has accepted that much (even Ukraine more less did) and it was supposed to be the end of it, but again, no. Was not allowed to end like that.
Afghanistan money was literally Western money, Afghanistan has practically no economy. Are you crying they didn't let the enemy steal their own money?
Yanuk was complaining to the West about Moscow not allowing him to do things. Americans likes him and wanted him stay.
There was no coup, there was a revolution. If you want to see a coup, look at Crimea - Russian soldiers raiding the parliament at night, occupying the building, leading the personnel out at gunpoint, changing flags. This is how a coup looks like.
At the cost of millions dead in many neutral countries? Whenever it happened in history?
We're discussing here whether it is legal under international law. And it is. No exception is made for 'has bad consequences for third parties'.
Americans are already feeding the world in absolutely massive humanitarian efforts for decades, since WWII and its aftermath (Berlin Airlift included).
It's cute that you think that has anything at all to do with 'humanitarianism'. They did not risk nuclear war for 'humanitarian' anything. That is their mask, for consumption by the average decent, red-blooded American, not something the ruling classes actually believe in.
America feeds the Palestinians (including Palestinian "refugees"), who hate America.
Because it buys America leverage and influence around the world.
They used to say a war between 2 countries with McDonalds can't happen, obviously couldn't even imagine something like that happening but here we go. Unimaginable, now happening.
Maybe 'they' were just idiots, just like the 'democratic peace theory' (as if Western countries are democratic). Human nature did not change just because McDonald's foisted obesity down every country's throats.
Ukraine was not allowed to reconquer Donbas in 2014, halted by the Russian regular incusion in August. The world de facto has accepted that much (even Ukraine more less did) and it was supposed to be the end of it, but again, no.
I mean, psychotic warmongers like McCain and Graham went to Ukraine and proclaimed that the next year would be "the year of offense". Ukraine was arming itself to the teeth in order to overrun the LDNR, and perhaps even Crimea.
Under such circumstances, along with Russia weakening by the year, the only rational course of action was this invasion. Same reason is why I expect China not to invade any time soon: they get stronger while they wait, not weaker.
Afghanistan money was literally Western money, Afghanistan has practically no economy. Are you crying they didn't let the enemy steal their own money?
I'm not 'complaining' about anything, just pointing out that these great humanitarians - who only months earlier had been telling their people that they should definitely go and die for Afghanistan (in order to enrich Raytheon), because they cared so much about the people, then decide to starve Afghans.
Yanuk was complaining to the West about Moscow not allowing him to do things. Americans likes him and wanted him stay.
Putin's 15 billion was no more charity than America's 'food aid' is. The smart country plays superpowers off against each other in order to extract maximum benefits. Ukraine decided to throw its lot in with the West, and as a result, innocent people are being wrecked.
What do you say 'Zelensky'? Is it because you want to say his real name is Rubinsteinbergmann?
??????
Cause it wasn't the real Zelensky. Christ man, they've done a real number on you. Hope you heal.
Russia started the new Cold War. For no reason other than imperialism. Actual imperialism, restoring their empire, not your stupid buzzword.
Fucking global genocide isn't legal. It's the crime not seen since 1945.
The Berlin Airlift risked your "nuclear war", yes.
What fucking influence, when the Palis won't stop biting the literal hand feeding them and stop chanting "death to America"? The "red blooded Americans" might have been shocked by the TV pictured of the 9/11 celebrations that the Palis held in the streets in 2001 but they don't even know their tax money is feeding these ingrates and keeping them alive.
Without American global aid, there would be millions starving around the world every year. Led the UN to war in fucking Somalia for no other reason but just to feed them (then took loads of them as refugees), instead of letting them die because black lives matter lol
The Afghans have been starving before America came and make them fed, and they still hated the Americans anyway. The Talis stole loads of American weapons, maybe they should try and trade them for food now. For once exporting something else than drugs.
You've put 'Zelensky' in just these quote marks, I tried to guess why would you do such a thing
I thought we just talked about how unarmed they were. How their best missiles were supposed to be export only and so are in Atabic. How they're low on ammunition after just 3 months, while Russia isn't (despite having almost depleted their Cold War stocks earlier in Chechnya and then recently delivering shiploads to Syria to lliterally level the cities there). All that stuff. Of course you forgot already.
Fucking global genocide isn't legal. It's the crime not seen since 1945.
Can you not cite anything in international law that disallows blockading if it results in negative consequences for third parties, as it always does?
Also, if this is 'genocide', doesn't that mean that the US is aiding genocide by telling them not to take grain from Russia?
The Berlin Airlift risked your "nuclear war", yes.
So they would not have to give up control over Berlin. Yes.
Without American global aid, there would be millions starving around the world every year.
Perhaps, but that certainly is not done out of any humanitarian motive. That is not even a consideration. Not for America, nor for Russia, nor for any other country. It's all Realpolitik and raison d'etat, nothing else.
Led the UN to war in fucking Somalia for no other reason but just to feed them (then took loads of them as refugees), instead of letting them die because black lives matter lol
After letting blacks be massacred in Rwanda. Yes, it was a cheap PR victory, that turned into a PR disaster - so they stopped.
The Talis stole loads of American weapons
Isn't that the stuff they just abandoned? How is that 'theft'? You can make the argument about the reserves, but not about the weapons America's allies left on the battlefield. What is it called, res relicta?
You've put 'Zelensky' in just these quote marks, I tried to guess why would you do such a thing
And you figured that because George Bush was totally talking to the real Zelensky, it must have been anti-Semitism. Rest assured that if I did hate Jews, I'd definitely be on Ukraine's side - Russians play a game of 'find the Ukrainian soldier without the Nazi insignia'. On Victory Day, Zelensky posted an image of a guy with Nazi symbols. Even NATO posted an image with Nazi symbols for International Women's Day.
Reuters posted an article with a picture of a guy who had a Nazi tattoo without any comment, because hey, he's allied with the Western oligarchies.
I thought we just talked about how unarmed they were. How their best missiles were supposed to be export only and do are in Atabic. How they're low on ammunition after just 3 months, while Russia isn't (despite having almost depleted their Cold War stocks earlier in Chechnya and then recently delivering shiploads to Syria to lliterally level the cities there). All that stuff. Of course you forgot already.
Because I'm not sure if it's true. And if the world's bullies had not been sending them weapons full-time, they would have run out much sooner.
Did the Russians really spend all their Cold War stocks in Chechnya? Sounds improbable, but if so, the USSR really was a paper tiger.
Fuck their empire.
I'm more concerned with the US imposing its will on countries around the world than with Russia interfering in its own backyard.
And you really have no idea why tanks are symbols of coups? A typical coup is when you take a column of tanks and drive on to the presidential (or royal) palace. The very symbol of the communist "revolution" in Afghanistan was the lead tank who was destroyed by the presidential guard before the other tanks killed everyone.
But of course you can also use APCs. Like Diem was even shot in the back of an APC after the first Saigon coup. But I do t even think South Vietnam had many tanks back then (all Diem era early 1960s battles before Americans brought their tanks along seemed to involve the M113s only when I was reading about them) so they're excused for doing it budget.
The world at the time was told (by Russia) it's not Russians at all.
They were, you see, just the "local self defense forces" peacefully changing their government. All just happened to be armed with Russia's newest Pecheneg light machineguns, but that was just a coincidence, after all this stuff can be bought in a corner store said Putin personally about them and the other Little Green Men patrolling the streets and taking over buildings. What a mystery it was!
Is it legitimate or not to try to sabotage a country's exports to attempt to cripple the state? Seems to me that it is a legitimate war aim, regardless of its effects on third parties.
So they're telling Africans to starve for its empire, like I said. And no enforcement? Not militarily perhaps, but they have a lot of levers with which to punish countries, which is why nearly all the world does what it demands.
I mean, Ukraine was ruled from Moscow, and if Ukraine has the right to reconquer the Donbas, then Russia has every right to reconquer Ukraine. Regarding theft, no, that's what the Americans do to the central bank reserves of Russia and Afghanistan.
Even if everything that you say is correct, and it may be, America and the EU still bear absolute responsibility for the coup. They were inciting against the government for months, after all - because that corrupt bastard was not their puppet.
Yes, that is the standard defense. So why are they so terrified of Russia getting its hands on these labs? Why was Bush happy that 'Zelensky' prevented the Russians from getting their hands on it? I'm sure the Russians have more biological weapons than any country in the world.
Yes, they thought Russia could be a 'democracy' - which they define as their puppet. Turns out, Putin is not their puppet. They got mad and started a new Cold War.
At the cost of millions dead in many neutral countries? Whenever it happened in history?
Shut the fuck up about "empire", seriously..I can't fucking hear it, it's so fucking dumb. Americans are already feeding the world in absolutely massive humanitarian efforts for decades, since WWII and its aftermath (Berlin Airlift included). US Aid, most of UN efforts. Feed even nominally enemy populations like the food airdrops in Afghanistan 2001. America feeds the Palestinians (including Palestinian "refugees"), who hate America.
It's the Russian leverage now, and the leverage is they suddenly disrupted and now control most of the regular food supply to the already hungry nations in the globalized world. They used to say a war between 2 countries with McDonalds can't happen, obviously couldn't even imagine something like that happening but here we go. Unimaginable, now happening.
Ukraine was not allowed to reconquer Donbas in 2014, halted by the Russian regular incusion in August. The world de facto has accepted that much (even Ukraine more less did) and it was supposed to be the end of it, but again, no. Was not allowed to end like that.
Afghanistan money was literally Western money, Afghanistan has practically no economy. Are you crying they didn't let the enemy steal their own money?
Yanuk was complaining to the West about Moscow not allowing him to do things. Americans likes him and wanted him stay.
There was no coup, there was a revolution. If you want to see a coup, look at Crimea - Russian soldiers raiding the parliament at night, occupying the building, leading the personnel out at gunpoint, changing flags. This is how a coup looks like.
Here are Russians witnessing the wonders of a lab (and looting it): https://twitter.com/terror_studies/status/1536426607577075724 It's denazified now.
What do you say 'Zelensky'? Is it because you want to say his real name is Rubinsteinbergmann?
Russia started the new Cold War. For no reason other than imperialism. Actual imperialism, restoring their empire, not your stupid buzzword.
We're discussing here whether it is legal under international law. And it is. No exception is made for 'has bad consequences for third parties'.
It's cute that you think that has anything at all to do with 'humanitarianism'. They did not risk nuclear war for 'humanitarian' anything. That is their mask, for consumption by the average decent, red-blooded American, not something the ruling classes actually believe in.
Because it buys America leverage and influence around the world.
Maybe 'they' were just idiots, just like the 'democratic peace theory' (as if Western countries are democratic). Human nature did not change just because McDonald's foisted obesity down every country's throats.
I mean, psychotic warmongers like McCain and Graham went to Ukraine and proclaimed that the next year would be "the year of offense". Ukraine was arming itself to the teeth in order to overrun the LDNR, and perhaps even Crimea.
Under such circumstances, along with Russia weakening by the year, the only rational course of action was this invasion. Same reason is why I expect China not to invade any time soon: they get stronger while they wait, not weaker.
I'm not 'complaining' about anything, just pointing out that these great humanitarians - who only months earlier had been telling their people that they should definitely go and die for Afghanistan (in order to enrich Raytheon), because they cared so much about the people, then decide to starve Afghans.
Putin's 15 billion was no more charity than America's 'food aid' is. The smart country plays superpowers off against each other in order to extract maximum benefits. Ukraine decided to throw its lot in with the West, and as a result, innocent people are being wrecked.
??????
Cause it wasn't the real Zelensky. Christ man, they've done a real number on you. Hope you heal.
Their empire.
Fucking global genocide isn't legal. It's the crime not seen since 1945.
The Berlin Airlift risked your "nuclear war", yes.
What fucking influence, when the Palis won't stop biting the literal hand feeding them and stop chanting "death to America"? The "red blooded Americans" might have been shocked by the TV pictured of the 9/11 celebrations that the Palis held in the streets in 2001 but they don't even know their tax money is feeding these ingrates and keeping them alive.
Without American global aid, there would be millions starving around the world every year. Led the UN to war in fucking Somalia for no other reason but just to feed them (then took loads of them as refugees), instead of letting them die because black lives matter lol
The Afghans have been starving before America came and make them fed, and they still hated the Americans anyway. The Talis stole loads of American weapons, maybe they should try and trade them for food now. For once exporting something else than drugs.
You've put 'Zelensky' in just these quote marks, I tried to guess why would you do such a thing
I thought we just talked about how unarmed they were. How their best missiles were supposed to be export only and so are in Atabic. How they're low on ammunition after just 3 months, while Russia isn't (despite having almost depleted their Cold War stocks earlier in Chechnya and then recently delivering shiploads to Syria to lliterally level the cities there). All that stuff. Of course you forgot already.
Fuck their empire.
Can you not cite anything in international law that disallows blockading if it results in negative consequences for third parties, as it always does?
Also, if this is 'genocide', doesn't that mean that the US is aiding genocide by telling them not to take grain from Russia?
So they would not have to give up control over Berlin. Yes.
Perhaps, but that certainly is not done out of any humanitarian motive. That is not even a consideration. Not for America, nor for Russia, nor for any other country. It's all Realpolitik and raison d'etat, nothing else.
After letting blacks be massacred in Rwanda. Yes, it was a cheap PR victory, that turned into a PR disaster - so they stopped.
Isn't that the stuff they just abandoned? How is that 'theft'? You can make the argument about the reserves, but not about the weapons America's allies left on the battlefield. What is it called, res relicta?
And you figured that because George Bush was totally talking to the real Zelensky, it must have been anti-Semitism. Rest assured that if I did hate Jews, I'd definitely be on Ukraine's side - Russians play a game of 'find the Ukrainian soldier without the Nazi insignia'. On Victory Day, Zelensky posted an image of a guy with Nazi symbols. Even NATO posted an image with Nazi symbols for International Women's Day.
Reuters posted an article with a picture of a guy who had a Nazi tattoo without any comment, because hey, he's allied with the Western oligarchies.
Because I'm not sure if it's true. And if the world's bullies had not been sending them weapons full-time, they would have run out much sooner.
Did the Russians really spend all their Cold War stocks in Chechnya? Sounds improbable, but if so, the USSR really was a paper tiger.
I'm more concerned with the US imposing its will on countries around the world than with Russia interfering in its own backyard.
This was how the actual Ukrainian coup, 2014 looked like: https://twitter.com/BurningPookan/status/1536300320564944900
Looking like a coup does, a budget one with no tanks (BTRs only).
Invasion is not really a coup. And I don't see why you would need tanks for a coup.
Like, what do you see here? Tanks, of course. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/29/newsid_2970000/2970317.stm
Yes, I know that they're used, but they serve no useful purpose beyond intimidation.
And you really have no idea why tanks are symbols of coups? A typical coup is when you take a column of tanks and drive on to the presidential (or royal) palace. The very symbol of the communist "revolution" in Afghanistan was the lead tank who was destroyed by the presidential guard before the other tanks killed everyone.
But of course you can also use APCs. Like Diem was even shot in the back of an APC after the first Saigon coup. But I do t even think South Vietnam had many tanks back then (all Diem era early 1960s battles before Americans brought their tanks along seemed to involve the M113s only when I was reading about them) so they're excused for doing it budget.
The world at the time was told (by Russia) it's not Russians at all.
They were, you see, just the "local self defense forces" peacefully changing their government. All just happened to be armed with Russia's newest Pecheneg light machineguns, but that was just a coincidence, after all this stuff can be bought in a corner store said Putin personally about them and the other Little Green Men patrolling the streets and taking over buildings. What a mystery it was!
They had to give the West a fig leaf... because they care so much about 'territorial integrity'.