Maybe, but premise 1 is faulty and vague whether or not I did. For one, how precisely would one define 'applicability' and 'happy coincidence'? Does it mean that there's no mathematics if there is no god, that 2+2 could equal 4 one moment and 5 another? Or that the fact that it is, is a 'coincidence'?
I don't see why this does not have to be true in any universe, whether or not a god exists.
Logic is synonymous with mind. How could mind govern a mindless universe?
The point being, “mathematics” becomes a meaningless word in a universe governed by chaos, randomness, and meaninglessness (i.e. God-less). I implore you to describe such a universe, hopefully such that you will see its utter implausibility
The point being, “mathematics” becomes a meaningless word in a universe governed by chaos, randomness, and meaninglessness (i.e. God-less).
Do you mean that the mere fact of God's existence (according to you) imbues mathematics with meaning for everyone, or that the word mathematics only has meaning to people who believe in a god?
I implore you to describe such a universe, hopefully such that you will see its utter implausibility
I just don't see it, nor its implausibility, at least as it specifically relates to mathematics. If you believe in a god, and think that the laws of mathematics are laws posited by the divinity, then it may seem obvious - sort of a William Paley watch argument - but not to me.
The best argument for a god I've heard is the cosmological argument. Everything has a cause, at least in our experience. But what caused the universe to come into existence? A god is a decent hypothesis for that. What then caused god? Some religious people say that this necessitates a cause that stands outside of time.
Here do you refer to something like “cause and effect”? A “mindless” star runs out of Hydrogen and thus implodes? It is my contention that the reason for the the universe proceeding logically can only be a logical mind (God) underpinning these processes. So the notion that even “mindless” parts of the universe proceed according to logic does indeed bolster my point. Unless you meant something else by “mindless processes”?
Do you mean that the mere fact of God's existence (according to you) imbues mathematics with meaning for everyone, or that the word mathematics only has meaning to people who believe in a god?
What I mean is, in a Godless universe mathematics should be no more privileged than smathematics (which is like mathematics but every number and logical operation is replaced with a mashed potato). The only conceivable reason for the applicability of math and logic to the universe is that the universe was designed with math and logic in mind. That’s what I’m trying to get at. Do you get where I’m coming from? Can you conceive of a counter-argument?
I just don't see it, nor its implausibility, at least as it specifically relates to mathematics. If you believe in a god, and think that the laws of mathematics are laws posited by the divinity, then it may seem obvious - sort of a William Paley watch argument - but not to me.
Fair enough, I probably wouldn’t have grokked the argument immediately back in my materialist reductionist days either. We can back up a bit: do you think math is fundamentally woven into the universe, or do you think math is fundamentally a human-created overlay with which we can analyze the world and it just so happens to have an utterly absurd degree of overlap? Are the mechanisms of the universe proceeding via mathematics and logic, or do they merely appear to be that way?
The best argument for a god I've heard is the cosmological argument.
Yeah same, it allows for the invigorating discussion without being bogged down by the baggage of dogma. Have you read much on the fine-tuned universe argument?
But what caused the universe to come into existence? A god is a decent hypothesis for that. What then caused god? Some religious people say that this necessitates a cause that stands outside of time.
I think God would be that “cause standing outside of time[/space/“the universe”]”, but that’s just a logical intuition of mine.
Premise 1 is accurate. You aren’t making anything approaching an argument.
Premise 2 is demonstrated through the fact you’re typing your message to me on a device you don’t understand the first thing about.
Maybe, but premise 1 is faulty and vague whether or not I did. For one, how precisely would one define 'applicability' and 'happy coincidence'? Does it mean that there's no mathematics if there is no god, that 2+2 could equal 4 one moment and 5 another? Or that the fact that it is, is a 'coincidence'?
I don't see why this does not have to be true in any universe, whether or not a god exists.
Logic is synonymous with mind. How could mind govern a mindless universe?
The point being, “mathematics” becomes a meaningless word in a universe governed by chaos, randomness, and meaninglessness (i.e. God-less). I implore you to describe such a universe, hopefully such that you will see its utter implausibility
Is it? Even mindless processes proceed logically.
Do you mean that the mere fact of God's existence (according to you) imbues mathematics with meaning for everyone, or that the word mathematics only has meaning to people who believe in a god?
I just don't see it, nor its implausibility, at least as it specifically relates to mathematics. If you believe in a god, and think that the laws of mathematics are laws posited by the divinity, then it may seem obvious - sort of a William Paley watch argument - but not to me.
The best argument for a god I've heard is the cosmological argument. Everything has a cause, at least in our experience. But what caused the universe to come into existence? A god is a decent hypothesis for that. What then caused god? Some religious people say that this necessitates a cause that stands outside of time.
Here do you refer to something like “cause and effect”? A “mindless” star runs out of Hydrogen and thus implodes? It is my contention that the reason for the the universe proceeding logically can only be a logical mind (God) underpinning these processes. So the notion that even “mindless” parts of the universe proceed according to logic does indeed bolster my point. Unless you meant something else by “mindless processes”?
What I mean is, in a Godless universe mathematics should be no more privileged than smathematics (which is like mathematics but every number and logical operation is replaced with a mashed potato). The only conceivable reason for the applicability of math and logic to the universe is that the universe was designed with math and logic in mind. That’s what I’m trying to get at. Do you get where I’m coming from? Can you conceive of a counter-argument?
Fair enough, I probably wouldn’t have grokked the argument immediately back in my materialist reductionist days either. We can back up a bit: do you think math is fundamentally woven into the universe, or do you think math is fundamentally a human-created overlay with which we can analyze the world and it just so happens to have an utterly absurd degree of overlap? Are the mechanisms of the universe proceeding via mathematics and logic, or do they merely appear to be that way?
Yeah same, it allows for the invigorating discussion without being bogged down by the baggage of dogma. Have you read much on the fine-tuned universe argument?
I think God would be that “cause standing outside of time[/space/“the universe”]”, but that’s just a logical intuition of mine.