This reminds me a bit of a short story I read where a city gets a computer to make all the decisions for them, but it all starts going poorly, when the computer cucks a guy by assigning his wife to another man and they realize the computer is terrible at emotional logic and worthless at anything that can't be boiled down to an equation. Can't remember the name unfortunately. This appears to be taking a different tack, but may explore similar themes.
Socialists, don't know what they want, how to accomplish it, and if they got it everything would be a mess. It's not exactly subtle commentary...
The idea of a memory bank of 100megabytes is quaint. To big for management at the sector level, but too small to make sense as a discrete device. Maybe in another 50 years I'll be wrong and we will have multi exabyte disks with 100 units of some sort, but I doubt it.
Also quaint is New Leningrad. Easy to mock in hindsight I guess, but it is a reminder of how ephemeral things can be in history that seem so permeant today.
The chain marriage was almost interesting, as I first thought it was structured that each member would have two sexual partners, the one older and the one younger, hence the requirement of alternation, but then it turned out just to be an excuse to talk about a girl getting impregnated by a man old enough to be her grandfather. With just the two partners each, it was almost semi-plausable as an alternative social structure, as it is it's far less interesting, and less believable as anything other than some old dude's harem with extra steps.
Actually, there sure is a lot of pregnancy talk, isn't there.
The idea of this autistic computer being more convincing as a female is a little suspect... But the change does highlight the tendancy to project human traits onto things based on assumptions that may have no grounding in reality, and the vast psychological difference between interacting with someone of the opposite sex vs the same sex. (Is this setting up for robot waifus later on?)
This reminds me a bit of a short story I read where a city gets a computer to make all the decisions for them, but it all starts going poorly, when the computer cucks a guy by assigning his wife to another man and they realize the computer is terrible at emotional logic and worthless at anything that can't be boiled down to an equation. Can't remember the name unfortunately. This appears to be taking a different tack, but may explore similar themes.
Heinlein was a utopian, and most of his works (that I've read) revolve around his ideas of what would make one possible (though he did write at least a couple novels with what could be described as dystopias.) Those themes are touched briefly, but mostly in the first few chapters with the development of Mike's sense of humor.
Socialists, don't know what they want, how to accomplish it, and if they got it everything would be a mess. It's not exactly subtle commentary...
An interesting things to note: Heinlein started his adulthood very much a socialist, and he even ran for state Congress (I believe) as a member of a socialist party/group. In fact his first written novel For Us, The Living (though it was not released until after his death) has a utopia with government price controls and universal basic income! He split from them over issues of international policy fairly early (he was opposed to nuclear disarmament, and this inspired him to write Starship Troopers.) I'm not certain how much his views on economics had changed by the end of his life, but I'm fairly certain he would not posit the same economic system he did there.
The idea of a memory bank of 100megabytes is quaint. To big for management at the sector level, but too small to make sense as a discrete device. Maybe in another 50 years I'll be wrong and we will have multi exabyte disks with 100 units of some sort, but I doubt it.
Also quaint is New Leningrad. Easy to mock in hindsight I guess, but it is a reminder of how ephemeral things can be in history that seem so permeant today.
Most of Heinlein's works definitely have some content that seems quaint or dated to the modern reader. Starship Troopers is somewhat unique in this regard, as aside from some brief discussions of the late 20th and early 21st century it hasn't been contradicted by actual history, and he didn't use a ton of slang or references that have fallen out of modern parlance. And while you are absolutely correct that what can seem quite permanent to those living through it can actually be quite ephemeral, despite the fall of the Soviet Union, our international politics are still very much divided into the same factions that existed then (though the members and political philosophies have changed) and this likely won't change significantly until we have another world war to establish the new factions (IMO).
The chain marriage was almost interesting, as I first thought it was structured that each member would have two sexual partners, the one older and the one younger, hence the requirement of alternation, but then it turned out just to be an excuse to talk about a girl getting impregnated by a man old enough to be her grandfather. With just the two partners each, it was almost semi-plausable as an alternative social structure, as it is it's far less interesting, and less believable as anything other than some old dude's harem with extra steps.
If you haven't read any Heinlein other than Starship Troopers, you might not know that Heinlein liked to put sexual deviancy into his books. That said, I don't think you're really giving it a fair shake. They discuss it more later in the book, but the male-female ratio on the moon was initially something like 8:1, which necessitated some changes to the social structure. I think they give three alternative "marriage" structures (and at least one non-"marriage" structure) that were commonly used to deal with these changes. A chain marriage (in addition to providing a legally recognized entity that could alleviate some of the sexual disparity) serves as a means of preserving property ownership, essentially acting as a trust for current and future members of the marriage, and avoiding issues of inheritance when paternity could be ambiguous, among other potential problems.
All that is to say, I don't think you're accurately describing chain marriage when you call it "some old dude's harem with extra steps." For one, it would have arisen initially in a female-dominated structure, with many dudes sharing fewer chicks. And for another, the book makes it pretty clear to me that the new bride just slept with the senior husband, she didn't "sleep" with him. I think later chapters flesh it out more, but at least in this particular "marriage", most individuals have one or two "favorite wives/husbands" that they are primarily intimate with (if I recall correctly. And your thoughts on how it would work are probably pretty close to Heinlein's, but too rigid for his tastes.) There would still be issues with inbreeding and such that I don't think Heinlein addresses fully, but those are somewhat mitigated by the fact that since the Moon is a prison colony, they don't have to worry as much about being reproductively self-sustaining.
Actually, there sure is a lot of pregnancy talk, isn't there.
I think this arises from two things, both of which I've touched on briefly. First is that Heinlein wants to address the social issues that would arise within the world he's built, and reproduction would be among them. Second, Heinlein had fairly libertine views on human sexuality, which he often included in his books (I think this one is actually fairly tame, relatively speaking.)
The idea of this autistic computer being more convincing as a female is a little suspect... But the change does highlight the tendancy to project human traits onto things based on assumptions that may have no grounding in reality, and the vast psychological difference between interacting with someone of the opposite sex vs the same sex.
I won't speculate on Heinlein's intent here, beyond saying it probably arises from what I'd call (tongue-in-cheek) his "fawning misogyny". He seems generally to view women as logically/intellectually inferior (or at least writes his protagonists from this perspective), but to intuit moral/social things more correctly than men. He also often writes the primary love interest of his main character to be a bit more masculine in their logic/behavior (apparently somewhat modeled on his second wife, making them vastly superior to the average (though not without flaws, preventing them from jumping headfirst into Mary Sue territory.)
That said, I do think it reasonable that Mike would become more convincingly human after talking with Wyoh; He'd essentially doubled his direct experience with human social interaction, and Wyoh didn't have the concerns Manny typically did when talking with Mike of keeping Luna running, so there conversation was likely purely social/intellectual, and didn't involve any discussions on why he shouldn't write a check for the entire Gross System Product to a janitor. Add onto that Heinlein's views on the differences between the sexes, and it makes sense that when introduced to a female, as the superior being, he would at least be able to convincingly present as one.
Sounds like you've already read the whole book. I'm only basing my judgment on the first four chapters, so if the chain marriage gets into more detail later on, I can't make any judgment on that.
From what I gathered it was the second most senior she slept with instead, and only because she was biologically related to the most senior husband.
Otherwise everything you've said seems relatively reasonable.
I've read Door To Summer, Space cadet, Red Planet, Farmer in the sky, and Between Planets, which i gather were aimed at a younger audience and thus avoid sexual discussions.
Sounds like you've already read the whole book. I'm only basing my judgment on the first four chapters, so if the chain marriage gets into more detail later on, I can't make any judgment on that.
I have. If you'd prefer I not color/spoil anything I can leave out any information from later in the book. (I try to avoid spoilers, but I believe on previous discussions I've corrected misconceptions/incorrect assumptions if they're contradicted later in the book.)
From what I gathered it was the second most senior she slept with instead, and only because she was biologically related to the most senior husband.
I don't recall the 'rank' of the husband she slept with. I'm inclined to believe he was somewhat junior based on my gut, but I think they flesh that out within the next few chapters.
I've read Door To Summer, Space cadet, Red Planet, Farmer in the sky, and Between Planets, which i gather were aimed at a younger audience and thus avoid sexual discussions.
I've heard that Starship Troopers was his last YA/first adult novel, though based on the one book I read published before that (The Puppet Masters), he was at least moving away from YA well before Starship Troopers.
This reminds me a bit of a short story I read where a city gets a computer to make all the decisions for them, but it all starts going poorly, when the computer cucks a guy by assigning his wife to another man and they realize the computer is terrible at emotional logic and worthless at anything that can't be boiled down to an equation. Can't remember the name unfortunately. This appears to be taking a different tack, but may explore similar themes.
Socialists, don't know what they want, how to accomplish it, and if they got it everything would be a mess. It's not exactly subtle commentary...
The idea of a memory bank of 100megabytes is quaint. To big for management at the sector level, but too small to make sense as a discrete device. Maybe in another 50 years I'll be wrong and we will have multi exabyte disks with 100 units of some sort, but I doubt it.
Also quaint is New Leningrad. Easy to mock in hindsight I guess, but it is a reminder of how ephemeral things can be in history that seem so permeant today.
The chain marriage was almost interesting, as I first thought it was structured that each member would have two sexual partners, the one older and the one younger, hence the requirement of alternation, but then it turned out just to be an excuse to talk about a girl getting impregnated by a man old enough to be her grandfather. With just the two partners each, it was almost semi-plausable as an alternative social structure, as it is it's far less interesting, and less believable as anything other than some old dude's harem with extra steps.
Actually, there sure is a lot of pregnancy talk, isn't there.
The idea of this autistic computer being more convincing as a female is a little suspect... But the change does highlight the tendancy to project human traits onto things based on assumptions that may have no grounding in reality, and the vast psychological difference between interacting with someone of the opposite sex vs the same sex. (Is this setting up for robot waifus later on?)
I never thought of it that way but you make some great points. I found the society they were in to be interesting.
Heinlein was a utopian, and most of his works (that I've read) revolve around his ideas of what would make one possible (though he did write at least a couple novels with what could be described as dystopias.) Those themes are touched briefly, but mostly in the first few chapters with the development of Mike's sense of humor.
An interesting things to note: Heinlein started his adulthood very much a socialist, and he even ran for state Congress (I believe) as a member of a socialist party/group. In fact his first written novel For Us, The Living (though it was not released until after his death) has a utopia with government price controls and universal basic income! He split from them over issues of international policy fairly early (he was opposed to nuclear disarmament, and this inspired him to write Starship Troopers.) I'm not certain how much his views on economics had changed by the end of his life, but I'm fairly certain he would not posit the same economic system he did there.
Most of Heinlein's works definitely have some content that seems quaint or dated to the modern reader. Starship Troopers is somewhat unique in this regard, as aside from some brief discussions of the late 20th and early 21st century it hasn't been contradicted by actual history, and he didn't use a ton of slang or references that have fallen out of modern parlance. And while you are absolutely correct that what can seem quite permanent to those living through it can actually be quite ephemeral, despite the fall of the Soviet Union, our international politics are still very much divided into the same factions that existed then (though the members and political philosophies have changed) and this likely won't change significantly until we have another world war to establish the new factions (IMO).
If you haven't read any Heinlein other than Starship Troopers, you might not know that Heinlein liked to put sexual deviancy into his books. That said, I don't think you're really giving it a fair shake. They discuss it more later in the book, but the male-female ratio on the moon was initially something like 8:1, which necessitated some changes to the social structure. I think they give three alternative "marriage" structures (and at least one non-"marriage" structure) that were commonly used to deal with these changes. A chain marriage (in addition to providing a legally recognized entity that could alleviate some of the sexual disparity) serves as a means of preserving property ownership, essentially acting as a trust for current and future members of the marriage, and avoiding issues of inheritance when paternity could be ambiguous, among other potential problems.
All that is to say, I don't think you're accurately describing chain marriage when you call it "some old dude's harem with extra steps." For one, it would have arisen initially in a female-dominated structure, with many dudes sharing fewer chicks. And for another, the book makes it pretty clear to me that the new bride just slept with the senior husband, she didn't "sleep" with him. I think later chapters flesh it out more, but at least in this particular "marriage", most individuals have one or two "favorite wives/husbands" that they are primarily intimate with (if I recall correctly. And your thoughts on how it would work are probably pretty close to Heinlein's, but too rigid for his tastes.) There would still be issues with inbreeding and such that I don't think Heinlein addresses fully, but those are somewhat mitigated by the fact that since the Moon is a prison colony, they don't have to worry as much about being reproductively self-sustaining.
I think this arises from two things, both of which I've touched on briefly. First is that Heinlein wants to address the social issues that would arise within the world he's built, and reproduction would be among them. Second, Heinlein had fairly libertine views on human sexuality, which he often included in his books (I think this one is actually fairly tame, relatively speaking.)
I won't speculate on Heinlein's intent here, beyond saying it probably arises from what I'd call (tongue-in-cheek) his "fawning misogyny". He seems generally to view women as logically/intellectually inferior (or at least writes his protagonists from this perspective), but to intuit moral/social things more correctly than men. He also often writes the primary love interest of his main character to be a bit more masculine in their logic/behavior (apparently somewhat modeled on his second wife, making them vastly superior to the average (though not without flaws, preventing them from jumping headfirst into Mary Sue territory.)
That said, I do think it reasonable that Mike would become more convincingly human after talking with Wyoh; He'd essentially doubled his direct experience with human social interaction, and Wyoh didn't have the concerns Manny typically did when talking with Mike of keeping Luna running, so there conversation was likely purely social/intellectual, and didn't involve any discussions on why he shouldn't write a check for the entire Gross System Product to a janitor. Add onto that Heinlein's views on the differences between the sexes, and it makes sense that when introduced to a female, as the superior being, he would at least be able to convincingly present as one.
Do you really want spoilers?
Sounds like you've already read the whole book. I'm only basing my judgment on the first four chapters, so if the chain marriage gets into more detail later on, I can't make any judgment on that.
From what I gathered it was the second most senior she slept with instead, and only because she was biologically related to the most senior husband.
Otherwise everything you've said seems relatively reasonable.
I've read Door To Summer, Space cadet, Red Planet, Farmer in the sky, and Between Planets, which i gather were aimed at a younger audience and thus avoid sexual discussions.
I have. If you'd prefer I not color/spoil anything I can leave out any information from later in the book. (I try to avoid spoilers, but I believe on previous discussions I've corrected misconceptions/incorrect assumptions if they're contradicted later in the book.)
I don't recall the 'rank' of the husband she slept with. I'm inclined to believe he was somewhat junior based on my gut, but I think they flesh that out within the next few chapters.
I've heard that Starship Troopers was his last YA/first adult novel, though based on the one book I read published before that (The Puppet Masters), he was at least moving away from YA well before Starship Troopers.