Most Jap media depicting a fight against "God" is really depicting a fight against an imposter
yes, this is classic gnosticism, a fight against a 'demiurge', who depending on the gnostic belief you are dealing with ranges from incompetent to malevolent, ruling over this world, above whom there are other more benevolent gods (or who he has usurped)
rather than a reference to the God of our real world.
no that's the point, it is a reference to God, seen through the lens of gnosticism. The gnostics believe the God of the old testament to be a demiurge. Gnosticism isn't some isolate belief with its own ideas, it is an offshoot and inversion of early Christianity and judaism particularly around the 2nd century, it comes from and inverts those beliefs and it is quite syncretic, incorporating many other beliefs.
Gnosticism is rife in Japanese media. There are a tonne of examples but elden ring and evangelion in particular. This is not a niche thing, it's in a tonne of their stuff but it's not well understood here. It's not that we've not had gnostic media here in the west either by the way, some big ones would be the matrix, his dark materials and the da vinci code, but they aren't quite as widely prevalent, just a few specific ones whose writers read a few gnostic ideas or conspiracies.
Gnosticism seems more logically consistant to me than mainstream Christianity.
Do you think a lot of subversion has snuck into Christianity in the last 2,000 years? I ask that rhetorically because I think it’s obvious that there has been a lot, but if you want me to point to specifics I can.
Thus, if “the true faith” of Christianity can be apparently subverted, what makes you so convinced that true gnosticism and true Christianity are in opposition?
One of the most interesting threads of “gnosticism” I’ve come across is the conjoined ideas that
1)the Essenes were “gnostics”
2)the Essenes were the sect that John the Baptist came from, and thus logically the sect that his cousin Jesus of Nazareth came from
Have you ever come across any of that?
Secondly, the “foundational text” of Christian gnosticism is the (so-called apochrypha) the Gospel of Thomas.
Copied and pasted^ the full text into a post recently. I’m interested in any flaws there you can point to, because based on my studies I’ve not come across anything specific that Christians can point to when they call gnosticism “satanic”. They often like to say it is too dualistic in the way it portrays our existence, yet will neglect the exact same dualism present in the canonical text of the Bible. Gnosticism is cast aside for calling the physical world corrupted and for saying satan (in various names across various groups) is “the god of this world”. Well one need only look at Genesis 1 and 2 Corinthians 4:4 for those notions to be echoed in scripture.
Why are you convinced to “throw the baby out with the bath water” on the subject of gnosticism and Christianity?
Well they range from goofy and easily dismissed to dogmatic beliefs built on lies and enforced through the deaths of tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents.
You have the “gay priests” and the “lesbian pastors”, which I won’t even bother finding links for, and which represent the worst of “Churchianity” or the notion that you can just “pick your favorite interpretations” such that the religion is one of your own making. Easily dismissible, these people are just part of random churches with no broader affiliations, ok whatever fair enough
Next you have issues like the fact that Joe Biden hasn’t been excommunicated from Roman Catholicism despite all the times he’s supported abortion. That’s just a hyper specific example, but I make it to show that even the “trad”, “based” strains have been subverted, not just these random no name churches with the gay trans pastor-of-color. One need look no further than the pope for confirmation of this point.
“Ok”, you might say, “so what, it’s been corrupted recently, all that means is we just need to look at the history of the Church with an analytical mind and determine the truth from that” - I mostly agree with this hypothetical I just made you say, but I want to show one example of just how far back this corruption went:
Basically, the exact specifics of Trinitarianism is one of the oldest topics of debate in Christianity. The Catholic Church has never liked this, because they are defined by their Trinitarian beliefs. The specifics are nuanced, but effectively, what was once perhaps a marginal note (the “comma”), a wise insight left by a reader, was transformed into Canon, which was enforced with murder most commonly. I can’t write a dissertation on the subject but I personally don’t see Trinitarianism as a dogma supported by scripture, you might find some interesting information on the subject in this loooong wiki page or related ones on specific sects who were slaughtered en masse. Newton for example was a Unitarian, what a different world we would live in had he been killed for his unorthodox thinking!
Whole sects of nontrinitarians have, for the last ~1800 years, been systematically murdered by the tens of thousand. And this wasn’t just in the brutal early days of the Roman church but continued basically up until the Protestant Reformation and for a while after.
So all that is to say, “Christianity” today already consists of so many (conflicting) interpretations and views and perspectives. How I understand “gnosticism” is basically just “use your wisdom and the knowledge you can glean from the world around you to determine the truth”, thus “Christian gnosticism” is basically just “use your wisdom to interpret scripture, never thinking you already have ‘all the answers’, but instead humbly seeking His wisdom in His word”. Which is probably effectively what most real Christians these days are already doing, I’m just willing to look beyond the bounds of these books selected and edited and selectively edited by the liars and murders discussed above. Hence I’ll look at something like the Gospel of Thomas with an open mind, and see the beauty of the New Testament in the lean form of 114 sayings by the wisest teacher men have known, Jesus
Thanks for the explanation. I only have time to briefly discus this gospel of thomas today, I need to be off, it's a day of obligation after all.
Hence I’ll look at something like the Gospel of Thomas with an open mind, and see the beauty of the New Testament in the lean form of 114 sayings by the wisest teacher men have known, Jesus
That's a big assumption. That it even is. You seem to object to verse 114 in particular being included. But the issue is that that verse is in alignment with so many other gnostic beliefs on gender, change, transformation and alchemy. It is consistent with all the other gnostic stuff.
is basically just “use your wisdom to interpret scripture, never thinking you already have ‘all the answers’, but instead humbly seeking His wisdom in His word”.
That's a milquetoast motte definition of gnosticism, as is gospel of Thomas itself. That definition isn't all that objectionable on its face, and nor is this one example text. It is not nearly overtly objectionable as their other gnostic materials (that it was found amongst!). It does nevertheless have lines that should raise an eyebrow in the observant and cause deep unease.
The whole thing about damning the flesh that depends on the body, and the body dependant on the flesh, prayer and fasting leading to sin and condemnation, secret knowledge for Thomas, destroying heaven and heavens above (other books refer to the destruction of the heavens meaning sky, but heaven and the heaven above? Should be a bit worrying) And just all through it a load of contradictions. Contradictions internally and with the true gospels, like with James vs Peter leading the church. It's set it opposition. One or the other must be rejected, and I think it's clear which.
yes, this is classic gnosticism, a fight against a 'demiurge', who depending on the gnostic belief you are dealing with ranges from incompetent to malevolent, ruling over this world, above whom there are other more benevolent gods (or who he has usurped)
no that's the point, it is a reference to God, seen through the lens of gnosticism. The gnostics believe the God of the old testament to be a demiurge. Gnosticism isn't some isolate belief with its own ideas, it is an offshoot and inversion of early Christianity and judaism particularly around the 2nd century, it comes from and inverts those beliefs and it is quite syncretic, incorporating many other beliefs.
Gnosticism is rife in Japanese media. There are a tonne of examples but elden ring and evangelion in particular. This is not a niche thing, it's in a tonne of their stuff but it's not well understood here. It's not that we've not had gnostic media here in the west either by the way, some big ones would be the matrix, his dark materials and the da vinci code, but they aren't quite as widely prevalent, just a few specific ones whose writers read a few gnostic ideas or conspiracies.
Gnosticism seems more logically consistant to me than mainstream Christianity.
Do you think a lot of subversion has snuck into Christianity in the last 2,000 years? I ask that rhetorically because I think it’s obvious that there has been a lot, but if you want me to point to specifics I can.
Thus, if “the true faith” of Christianity can be apparently subverted, what makes you so convinced that true gnosticism and true Christianity are in opposition?
One of the most interesting threads of “gnosticism” I’ve come across is the conjoined ideas that
1)the Essenes were “gnostics”
2)the Essenes were the sect that John the Baptist came from, and thus logically the sect that his cousin Jesus of Nazareth came from
Have you ever come across any of that?
Secondly, the “foundational text” of Christian gnosticism is the (so-called apochrypha) the Gospel of Thomas.
https://communities.win/c/Manna/p/17teNpu1o2/the-gospel-of-thomas/c
Copied and pasted^ the full text into a post recently. I’m interested in any flaws there you can point to, because based on my studies I’ve not come across anything specific that Christians can point to when they call gnosticism “satanic”. They often like to say it is too dualistic in the way it portrays our existence, yet will neglect the exact same dualism present in the canonical text of the Bible. Gnosticism is cast aside for calling the physical world corrupted and for saying satan (in various names across various groups) is “the god of this world”. Well one need only look at Genesis 1 and 2 Corinthians 4:4 for those notions to be echoed in scripture.
Why are you convinced to “throw the baby out with the bath water” on the subject of gnosticism and Christianity?
Yeah I'll read through that and research it now, but yeah what examples of subversion were you thinking of?
Well they range from goofy and easily dismissed to dogmatic beliefs built on lies and enforced through the deaths of tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents.
You have the “gay priests” and the “lesbian pastors”, which I won’t even bother finding links for, and which represent the worst of “Churchianity” or the notion that you can just “pick your favorite interpretations” such that the religion is one of your own making. Easily dismissible, these people are just part of random churches with no broader affiliations, ok whatever fair enough
Next you have issues like the fact that Joe Biden hasn’t been excommunicated from Roman Catholicism despite all the times he’s supported abortion. That’s just a hyper specific example, but I make it to show that even the “trad”, “based” strains have been subverted, not just these random no name churches with the gay trans pastor-of-color. One need look no further than the pope for confirmation of this point.
“Ok”, you might say, “so what, it’s been corrupted recently, all that means is we just need to look at the history of the Church with an analytical mind and determine the truth from that” - I mostly agree with this hypothetical I just made you say, but I want to show one example of just how far back this corruption went:
The Johannine Comma:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannine_Comma
Basically, the exact specifics of Trinitarianism is one of the oldest topics of debate in Christianity. The Catholic Church has never liked this, because they are defined by their Trinitarian beliefs. The specifics are nuanced, but effectively, what was once perhaps a marginal note (the “comma”), a wise insight left by a reader, was transformed into Canon, which was enforced with murder most commonly. I can’t write a dissertation on the subject but I personally don’t see Trinitarianism as a dogma supported by scripture, you might find some interesting information on the subject in this loooong wiki page or related ones on specific sects who were slaughtered en masse. Newton for example was a Unitarian, what a different world we would live in had he been killed for his unorthodox thinking!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism
Whole sects of nontrinitarians have, for the last ~1800 years, been systematically murdered by the tens of thousand. And this wasn’t just in the brutal early days of the Roman church but continued basically up until the Protestant Reformation and for a while after.
So all that is to say, “Christianity” today already consists of so many (conflicting) interpretations and views and perspectives. How I understand “gnosticism” is basically just “use your wisdom and the knowledge you can glean from the world around you to determine the truth”, thus “Christian gnosticism” is basically just “use your wisdom to interpret scripture, never thinking you already have ‘all the answers’, but instead humbly seeking His wisdom in His word”. Which is probably effectively what most real Christians these days are already doing, I’m just willing to look beyond the bounds of these books selected and edited and selectively edited by the liars and murders discussed above. Hence I’ll look at something like the Gospel of Thomas with an open mind, and see the beauty of the New Testament in the lean form of 114 sayings by the wisest teacher men have known, Jesus
Thanks for the explanation. I only have time to briefly discus this gospel of thomas today, I need to be off, it's a day of obligation after all.
That's a big assumption. That it even is. You seem to object to verse 114 in particular being included. But the issue is that that verse is in alignment with so many other gnostic beliefs on gender, change, transformation and alchemy. It is consistent with all the other gnostic stuff.
That's a milquetoast motte definition of gnosticism, as is gospel of Thomas itself. That definition isn't all that objectionable on its face, and nor is this one example text. It is not nearly overtly objectionable as their other gnostic materials (that it was found amongst!). It does nevertheless have lines that should raise an eyebrow in the observant and cause deep unease.
The whole thing about damning the flesh that depends on the body, and the body dependant on the flesh, prayer and fasting leading to sin and condemnation, secret knowledge for Thomas, destroying heaven and heavens above (other books refer to the destruction of the heavens meaning sky, but heaven and the heaven above? Should be a bit worrying) And just all through it a load of contradictions. Contradictions internally and with the true gospels, like with James vs Peter leading the church. It's set it opposition. One or the other must be rejected, and I think it's clear which.