Dunkirk

I was really surprised with the subtlety of this movie. Made it seem more realistic to not have every character saying "nazi". I don't think they even specified nationalities? It seemed like a movie made for adults, which I respected. I barely recall anything about the history, though, even being similarly told about it beforehand.

Perhaps I should have asked you to define The Holocaust, as most of my points are going to revolve around it being the "disputed" eradication of millions of jews. If you pull it back to include the, erm, civilian antics, then I wouldn't have much to say.

If Germany had been Fascist instead of National Socialist, it wouldn't have happened. The war still would have been bloody, but the explicit extermination of the Jewish race was an imperative to National Socialism and Nazi argument of Judeo-Bolshevism, the Racial Theory of History, and Socialism as applied to race.

The meat of the issue, to me, comes before they were being rounded up in camps. There was some clear hostility. It was being encouraged among the citizens and backed by the state to various degrees. I do agree about this being desirable for the political philosophy at play - I just don't want to feel trapped by a real death toll to justify claiming that it was a bad idea.

Like..one of the arguments I liked from HD (holocaust deniers) was that the camps were intended as transitional spaces for the jews. This is the idea that they didn't need to die, they just needed to get out. Obviously there are some flaws in this, but I'm not trying to argue that it's true. My point is that it led me to the thought experiment of assuming it was true, and that even if zero jews had died, it doesn't make everything happy and fun. Bad things were done. I think the death part really undermines the tragedy at play, in fact.

Even in Genocides, people flee. The National Socialists made sure they couldn't.

I don't know much about this part, I never really saw it mentioned before. But I'll accept it here. Even in a savior theory where the state offers their protection to jews because those crazy citizens are out of hand, so come to our safe camp until things settle down (made up the most generous theory I could) - the ideologies at play are wholly responsible for things getting that bad in the first place and it turns into one of those disgusting displays where the plague-bearer is selling cures.

I do wonder how much of this is that classic german efficiency versus how much was politically inevitable for a modern sort of society.

Stating that it is a moral imperative, as the National Socialists concluded, is really intolerable to all moral creatures

I'll agree here. I can't quite describe why, but something about the argument troubles me. Something about totalitarianism. Do whatever you want on your own land, but don't demand your neighbors do the same. Modern problem being that small scale societies may not exist anymore, as if totalitarianism is an evolutionary certainty.

It's a way of hoisting the Marxists and Communists on their own petard

The way you describe it in this section, makes it sound like the ideology was refined for the purpose of dominating socialism-adjacent philosophies. Do you think that's true?

Admittedly I share sympathies with it there. I think it's hard not to with how skewed society is right now. Living paycheck to paycheck really sucks and no amount of effort can dig you out of that hole if that effort isn't directed just right. Impossible to lift your head and look around when you're exhausted and demoralized. And we don't all have family or friends to count on for sound advice.

If they all didn't make such terrible arguments/suggestions, maybe I'd be caught up in "anti-capitalism" as well. I'm dreading the time when I have to talk one of my dumb relatives down, they're heading that way.

That should concern the fuck out of you given how many Racial Socialists are appearing on the right and are making all the same claims.

Sort of an aside here, but how do you even classify "the right"? It's no fun to look up definitions for these things. I tried to make a definition based off the thing you say about leftism being a philosophy of war. Since leftism is about power, that'd make 'rightism' about principle, wouldn't it? I don't see this asked often enough online, considering the frequency of "right-wing" being passed out as a label.

What I'm most concerned about is the civil unrest and authoritative racialism and how they're being interwoven. Seems too much like that Weimar period to me. Even if I don't think we're gonna have any death camps here, I can't shake this fear. There's much worse things than death anyway.

Edit:

In my experience it's basically doing a project, reading Night, and reading Maus

Kinda jealous here. My most memorable experience for holocaust learning was a highschool german class where my bleeding heart teacher had us watch Schindler's List and got really upset when I laughed at something in the movie (some directorially hamfisted moment; I wasn't openly edgy). Ironically way more involved and manipulative than anything I ever got from history class.

Dunkirk

I was really surprised with the subtlety of this movie. Made it seem more realistic to not have every character saying "nazi". I don't think they even specified nationalities? It seemed like a movie made for adults, which I respected. I barely recall anything about the history, though, even being similarly told about it beforehand.

Perhaps I should have asked you to define The Holocaust, as most of my points are going to revolve around it being the "disputed" eradication of millions of jews. If you pull it back to include the, erm, civilian antics, then I wouldn't have much to say.

If Germany had been Fascist instead of National Socialist, it wouldn't have happened. The war still would have been bloody, but the explicit extermination of the Jewish race was an imperative to National Socialism and Nazi argument of Judeo-Bolshevism, the Racial Theory of History, and Socialism as applied to race.

The meat of the issue, to me, comes before they were being rounded up in camps. There was some clear hostility. It was being encouraged among the citizens and backed by the state to various degrees. I do agree about this being desirable for the political philosophy at play - I just don't want to feel trapped by a real death toll to justify claiming that it was a bad idea.

Like..one of the arguments I liked from HD (holocaust deniers) was that the camps were intended as transitional spaces for the jews. This is the idea that they didn't need to die, they just needed to get out. Obviously there are some flaws in this, but I'm not trying to argue that it's true. My point is that it led me to the thought experiment of assuming it was true, and that even if zero jews had died, it doesn't make everything happy and fun. Bad things were done. I think the death part really undermines the tragedy at play, in fact.

Even in Genocides, people flee. The National Socialists made sure they couldn't.

I don't know much about this part, I never really saw it mentioned before. But I'll accept it here. Even in a savior theory where the state offers their protection to jews because those crazy citizens are out of hand, so come to our safe camp until things settle down (made up the most generous theory I could) - the ideologies at play are wholly responsible for things getting that bad in the first place and it turns into one of those disgusting displays where the plague-bearer is selling cures.

I do wonder how much of this is that classic german efficiency versus how much was politically inevitable for a modern sort of society.

Stating that it is a moral imperative, as the National Socialists concluded, is really intolerable to all moral creatures

I'll agree here. I can't quite describe why, but something about the argument troubles me. Something about totalitarianism. Do whatever you want on your own land, but don't demand your neighbors do the same. Modern problem being that small scale societies may not exist anymore, as if totalitarianism is an evolutionary certainty.

It's a way of hoisting the Marxists and Communists on their own petard

The way you describe it in this section, makes it sound like the ideology was refined for the purpose of dominating socialism-adjacent philosophies. Do you think that's true?

Admittedly I share sympathies with it there. I think it's hard not to with how skewed society is right now. Living paycheck to paycheck really sucks and no amount of effort can dig you out of that hole if that effort isn't directed just right. Impossible to lift your head and look around when you're exhausted and demoralized. And we don't all have family or friends to count on for sound advice.

If they all didn't make such terrible arguments/suggestions, maybe I'd be caught up in "anti-capitalism" as well. I'm dreading the time when I have to talk one of my dumb relatives down, they're heading that way.

That should concern the fuck out of you given how many Racial Socialists are appearing on the right and are making all the same claims.

Sort of an aside here, but how do you even classify "the right"? It's no fun to look up definitions for these things. I tried to make a definition based off the thing you say about leftism being a philosophy of war. Since leftism is about power, that'd make 'rightism' about principle, wouldn't it? I don't see this asked often enough online, considering the frequency of "right-wing" being passed out as a label.

What I'm most concerned about is the civil unrest and authoritative racialism and how they're being interwoven. Seems too much like that Weimar period to me. Even if I don't think we're gonna have any death camps here, I can't shake this fear. There's much worse things than death anyway.